Your Favorite Cast Loads for the A3?

Hi All,
Having been mostly a handgun guy my whole life, casting and reloading is the way I like to go.

But it seems to me that most .30 cal cast loads fall short of the standard jacketed loads. Or is it just my imagination?

So I was wondering what (ideally published) loads others use to approximate the jacketed performance with their A3's?

I've read the C.E. Harris articles, and they are mostly low powered loads. Pretty much topping out in the 30-30 range of energy and velocity. (Which then begs the question, why not just use a 30-30 if you are going to use cast.)

So, I figure I have to be missing something.

If not, seems to make sense to relegate casting to the larger calibers like 45-70? (Where bullet weight can help to generated energy levels and momentum.)

Has anyone found that the 2-groove barrels impose any unique requirements?

There are those who have made reloads with cast bullets that rival jacketed, but not very many. It is somewhat of a Black Art to cast bullets and experience is a big part of having success. The ballistics of a 30-30 are even somewhat high for consistent performance. It is one thing to cast and shoot one or two high powered cast loads, it is another to shoot a 40 round match, maintain accuracy, and keep the barrel from leading. I use one of the Harris loads with Alliant 2400 at ~1,600 fps with a 170 grain, gas checked 0.314" cast bullet. From a new 1944 Remington barrel, it will hold five shots in one inch at 50 yards and two inches at 100 yards from sandbags. At 200 with enough sight elevation it will hold the 10 ring of the SR target. I also had a much faster load and after 10 rounds it was a pattern rather than a group at 200. My take is that casting is a way to save money on powder and projectiles (assume your time is free). They are great loads for plinking, target shooting <200 yards and small game. Have fun but it is going to be a project.

Dave

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Originally Posted by Wineman

There are those who have made reloads with cast bullets that rival jacketed, but not very many. It is somewhat of a Black Art to cast bullets and experience is a big part of having success. The ballistics of a 30-30 are even somewhat high for consistent performance. It is one thing to cast and shoot one or two high powered cast loads, it is another to shoot a 40 round match, maintain accuracy, and keep the barrel from leading. I use one of the Harris loads with Alliant 2400 at ~1,600 fps with a 170 grain, gas checked 0.314" cast bullet. From a new 1944 Remington barrel, it will hold five shots in one inch at 50 yards and two inches at 100 yards from sandbags. At 200 with enough sight elevation it will hold the 10 ring of the SR target. I also had a much faster load and after 10 rounds it was a pattern rather than a group at 200. My take is that casting is a way to save money on powder and projectiles (assume your time is free). They are great loads for plinking, target shooting <200 yards and small game. Have fun but it is going to be a project.

Dave

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See... that's the rub...

Sounds like, in anything below (nominally) 45-70, to get the performance you associate with the caliber... jacketed is neccessary... unless you want a big research project. But that pretty much neccesitates buying rather than fabricating the bullets. (Corbin stuff strikes me as rather extravagent. And I'm not sure what to think about paper patching, exactly.)

I.e. In .30 cal. battle rifles, for the most part this means cast bullets = reduced loads and accepting reduced performance.

Leading me to think, that if I want hunting performance in cast, one has to go with larger calibers than .30.

Though I don't hunt these days. Hunting performance is pretty much my personal benchmark. for better or worse.

So I'm thinking, for me personally, that means arguably 45-70. Which I find disappointing, to say the least.

Given that I don't plan on doing much hunting, I guess the the performance might be a moot point, but I'd like to use the loads I would use if I were to decide or need to. Thing is, I think I checked Nosler Partitions the other day and it worked out to $0.80 a round... and you have to buy them vrs. fabricate.

So I'm wondering if there's some other solution I'm missing?

Bottom line, seems to me, using cast in .30 cal rifles is to essentially reduce the performance to magnum handgun or .30 cal. carbine levels. If you're going to do that, why not just take handgun, right?

There is a reason why the World's military powers went from 45-70, 11 Mauser, 41 Verletti, 450-500 Snider to 7.92 Mauser, 7.62 Mosin, 30-06, 8mm Lebel, 303 British. Smokeless powder and jackets equaled performance. You could use a cast from wheelweights Lyman 311299 with a gas check at 0.310-312. Load it over 45 grains of H4350 with any standard primer in the 30-06 and get 2,200 fps. Still not 2,700 fps but it would be a hunting load, it will recoil stoutly and for several shots (maybe more) you should have minute of deer accuracy.

These are only $0.40 Remington Bulk Bullets .308 (7.62mm) 150 grain PSPCL: Reloading Components
but by the time you get casting equipment etc. you may find them a good value. Get 500 and you are $0.34 plus shipping.

On the other hand, the targets at my 100 yard local range do not seem to care that the lead is only going 1,600 fps, my shoulder is happier, and I have the satisfaction of having rolled my own. Was there a learning curve, sure but that was part of the fun. If I stay under 200 yards home cast lead is fine and relatively inexpensive: primer same $0.05; powder less at $0.07; bullet with Gas Check $0.10 (lead was free, GC, lube and equipment amortized are the other costs). If I want to reach out and touch the 200-500 Meter silhouette animals and get something close to 40 then it is Sierra Match King 168's and plenty of H4350 in my 1903A3.

Have fun,

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wineman

There is a reason why the World's military powers went from 45-70, 11 Mauser, 41 Verletti, 450-500 Snider to 7.92 Mauser, 7.62 Mosin, 30-06, 8mm Lebel, 303 British. Smokeless powder and jackets equaled performance. You could use a cast from wheelweights Lyman 311299 with a gas check at 0.310-312. Load it over 45 grains of H4350 with any standard primer in the 30-06 and get 2,200 fps. Still not 2,700 fps but it would be a hunting load, it will recoil stoutly and for several shots (maybe more) you should have minute of deer accuracy.

These are only $0.40 Remington Bulk Bullets .308 (7.62mm) 150 grain PSPCL: Reloading Components
but by the time you get casting equipment etc. you may find them a good value. Get 500 and you are $0.34 plus shipping.

On the other hand, the targets at my 100 yard local range do not seem to care that the lead is only going 1,600 fps, my shoulder is happier, and I have the satisfaction of having rolled my own. Was there a learning curve, sure but that was part of the fun. If I stay under 200 yards home cast lead is fine and relatively inexpensive: primer same $0.05; powder less at $0.07; bullet with Gas Check $0.10 (lead was free, GC, lube and equipment amortized are the other costs). If I want to reach out and touch the 200-500 Meter silhouette animals and get something close to 40 then it is Sierra Match King 168's and plenty of H4350 in my 1903A3.

Have fun,

Dave

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Hmm... well, that pretty much confirms my feelings that if you're going to shoot cast in a .30 cal rifle, there's not much point to having more case capacity than say a 30-30.

On the one hand the idea was lower cost. But on the other it was to remove some dependence on "store bought" components. Granted you can't get away from brass, powder and primers anyway. Unless you want to go flintlock. LOL!

Having come primarily from the handgun side of the fence, plain base cast has always been fine before. Wasn't until I got into rifles that I started to realize the tradeoff of requiring jacketed for the smaller diameters.

Hmm... Have to admit, it's got me thinking about a Marlin Guide Gun for any thing under 200 yards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MilSurpFan

Hmm... well, that pretty much confirms my feelings that if you're going to shoot cast in a .30 cal rifle, there's not much point to having more case capacity than say a 30-30.

On the one hand the idea was lower cost. But on the other it was to remove some dependence on "store bought" components. Granted you can't get away from brass, powder and primers anyway. Unless you want to go flintlock. LOL!

Having come primarily from the handgun side of the fence, plain base cast has always been fine before. Wasn't until I got into rifles that I started to realize the tradeoff of requiring jacketed for the smaller diameters.

Hmm... Have to admit, it's got me thinking about a Marlin Guide Gun for any thing under 200 yards.

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I shoot lead in all my pistols and revolvers and jacketed in all my rifles. Pistol guys shoot way more then rifle guys so yes it's cheaper to shoot lead in a hand cannon. I don't mind the added cost for jacketed rifle bullets because I strive for original service velocities.

An aside,, I watched a video on YouTube of a guy who uses those paper snap things we used in our cowboy guns as kids in place of a primer.!! It works.!!
He had a few FTF but in a SHTF situation it is an option.

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

I shoot lead in all my pistols and revolvers and jacketed in all my rifles. Pistol guys shoot way more then rifle guys so yes it's cheaper to shoot lead in a hand cannon. I don't mind the added cost for jacketed rifle bullets because I strive for original service velocities.

An aside,, I watched a video on YouTube of a guy who uses those paper snap things we used in our cowboy guns as kids in place of a primer.!! It works.!!
He had a few FTF but in a SHTF situation it is an option.

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I guess you could use paper caps... I've read of some folks using match heads, but I suspect it's very corrosive. I wouldn't do that unless the stuff really had hit the fan. Between the corrosive effects and the lack of trust that it would go off (or worse yet with the matches... go off when I wasn't expecting it)... fussing with priming compounds is just over my head.

I guess my point is... .30 cal, rifles are critcally dependent on jacketed bullets to have the performance levels they have. For me personally that's a minus that is driving toward looking at bigger bores.

Was wondering if anyone else reached the same conclusion?

I guess this is the bottom line for me on cast and .30 cal rifles...

If I'm limited to the same velocities as cast handgun bullets... seems more effective to just a use a .44 mag hangun, after all 240 gr. Kieth type is heaver than a 180 gr. .30 cal. rifle bullet.

Is that thinking offbase?

I mean why carry a rifle if a handgun can do the same job?

155gr Lee w/ gas check

19/20 gr 5744

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Originally Posted by mannparks

155gr Lee w/ gas check

19/20 gr 5744

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Is that the Lee mold intended for 7.62x39 ? (C312-155-2R)

Do you size those or use them a full 0.004 over .308?

I guess the question is doing vs. being able to. If you want to use the 30 cal with cast lead it sure can be done but what is the intended purpose? If busting dirt clods and empty beer cans with your kids, check. If you want to punch paper under 200 yards accurately, check. If you want to shoot small animals (varmints?), check. If you want to shoot meat for the table either large or small, check. If you want to get into a long range fire fight with a bunch of Zombies well, we might need to talk. 240 grains at 1,300 is less power than 200 grains at 1,600 plus you get a longer sight radius, (scopes the same), less noise, more weight, and a handy club for really nasty game animals. Still it is easier to grab a box of jacketed and load them up, no question.

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MilSurpFan

Is that the Lee mold intended for 7.62x39 ? (C312-155-2R)

Do you size those or use them a full 0.004 over .308?

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Yes that's a 10-4 on the Lee mold #.
As you know the bullets drop from that mold rather fat for a
308 dia . So depending on which 30 cal.I'll size accordingly .
.310 or. .311.
Its all a trial and error.

Charles

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wineman

I guess the question is doing vs. being able to. If you want to use the 30 cal with cast lead it sure can be done but what is the intended purpose? If busting dirt clods and empty beer cans with your kids, check. If you want to punch paper under 200 yards accurately, check. If you want to shoot small animals (varmints?), check. If you want to shoot meat for the table either large or small, check. If you want to get into a long range fire fight with a bunch of Zombies well, we might need to talk. 240 grains at 1,300 is less power than 200 grains at 1,600 plus you get a longer sight radius, (scopes the same), less noise, more weight, and a handy club for really nasty game animals. Still it is easier to grab a box of jacketed and load them up, no question.

Dave

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I guess we're on the same page, real '06 performance is an artifact of jacketed bullets. So I guess the choices are buy/make them, or accept the limitations of the caliber with cast (especially plain base), or go for larger diameter.

The exception might be paper patched, but not sure how I feel about that. Haven't been able to identify a suitable paper that I'm sure has no clay, titanium dioxide or other abrasives in it.

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mannparks

Yes that's a 10-4 on the Lee mold #.
As you know the bullets drop from that mold rather fat for a
308 dia . So depending on which 30 cal.I'll size accordingly .
.310 or. .311.
Its all a trial and error.

Charles

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Had been considering that mold for a 91/30. But since I read the effectiveness of lead bullets is largely based on the size of the meplat, well, none of the Lee molds fit that need. This particular mold is essentially a spitzer, and on the light side. I certainly like the way it looks. Spitzers and bottlenecks go together visually for whatever reasons. And I'm sure it feeds more reliably in the SKS and AK rifles it was designed for.

Considering the velocity limitiations of cast I was thinking at least 170-180 gr. for .30 cal. Unfortunately, most of the large meplat molds in those calibers seem to be the much pricer Lymans. And well... I seem to recall Lee makes a statement that thier bullets cast reasonably close to what they list, and that you can generally run them without sizing. But not sure where I picked that thought up at anymore.