Do any of the member know why the canvas scope pouch was not used in the l42a1 transit chest?.
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Do any of the member know why the canvas scope pouch was not used in the l42a1 transit chest?.
Peter may well know for sure - I can only speculate that by 1970 they would all have been getting on a bit (& they most definitely do have a weak spot in the design & tend to rip/fray at the 'hinge' point of the flap), & so were not used. Incidentally Kim, when you say 'canvas scope pouch' I'm assuming you mean the No8 Mk2 scope case - forgive me if I have misunderstood you.
ATB
R.
Thats correct roger, the fold over flap canvas thingy.
Definately NO. The Mk2 part number was obsolete in 1953 or 54
Peter, do you happen to know why it was declared obsolete? Was it because, compared to the tin, it was just too fragile/not sufficiently hard wearing?
ATB
To be honest, I don't know but I think that it was just a speedy stop-gap looking at it. On the other hand, I don't really think that there'd be much difference in the production costs at all. There's a lot of intricate sewing but very cheap material in that little robust textile case. The tin is several different one-hit pressings for different parts, very cheap material but quite labour intensive to put together.
I think/would imagine that it was simply because the chest was made for the tin and that fact sealed the bags fate.
As a matter of interest, I like the idea of a little softee bag although that bag was hardly what we think of nowadays as a softee bag. Do the textile Mk2 bags sit comfortably within the chests?
Roger,
Funnily enough the 4T that we both owned, and me up till about an hour ago as it went out the door complete, had a cover dated 1952 in the case,
Just for Info
Cheers Gil. I have a couple of the Mk2 cases in nice order (one Canadian & one British), as well as a very tatty British one that is virtually falling apart. I've seen others, too, that are quite well frayed at the point where the top flap has to bend when closing the case. The rubber plug in the bottom also tends to go hard & brittle with age. It's only MHO but I think the tin is a better proposition (though I know there are arguments both ways). Indeed it changed very little from its inception in 1941 till the last were made in 1983 (or 1980-whenever it was).
ATB
Its funny really how things have gone full circle. The 3-12 x 50 black S&B issued to the L96 has its own DPM padded scope case.
That S&B cover was a requirement because the big scope wouldn't fit properly in the chest as did the little green one. You could 'stuff' it in, as some did but...... So they ended up on the armoury shelf. But at least they were in the softee bag!
Ironic really. The L96 got a £2,200 S&B when the next serious contender was a Bushnell for £35 (?) or so! And a very worthy contender it was. I saw one of the Bushnells used in the trials last Thursday. A bit beaten up but still serviceable...., now on a little .22 used for vermin on the Plain! Apparently, if they could have been persuaded to change the grat pattern and some other simple stuff, they'd have got the contract. Apparently Bushnell were difficult people to deal with. I think one of the US forumers spoke about this when the subject cropped up earlier.
As a little aside to this.......... When I asked Geoff XXXXX if I could have/buy/swop his ex trials/ITDU Bushnell, he said that he'd swop me it - if I had a gash spare S&B 3 - 12 x50 that he could fit onto his No8 that he used for vermin shooting on Salisbury Plain! Not a good swop I feel, even if I had a gash spare!
Sorry if I've gone off at a tangent - again!
Interesting stuff Peter. I suppose a company selling, say, 300 scopes at £35 a pop is less inclined to bend over backwards and change things for bespoke output than someone selling them at £2k each (who knows, changing the production line might cost more than the cost of the contract). I wonder if the changes the MoD wanted were all that important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Food for thought Prinz...... The first tentative trials for a replacement No32 scope that were conducted during the 70's and onwards excluded S&B offerings. One being that the lenses were plasticised............... Hey, haven't I alrteady gone into all this blurb recently? But it very prtobably adds credence to youyr suggestion about the volume/quantities required.
A US forumer - was it you JM? - mentioned that the problem was that the otherwise good Bushnells were all made in China so everything would have been a long winded affair for the relatively small quantity required for a UK order. I later learned that we also stipulated a spare parts undertaking for certain external items that were liable to get lost and damaged. I can only think of eye guard rubbers and range/deflection cap/covers.
Interesting thread
The scope tin and leather strap for the 4T..................now there must be an interesting decision making process on that one.
Yes I see the logic of having the scope in a protective tin when the rifle was disassembled, but never really fully grasped the reason why they even bothered placing a lovely leather strap around the tin at a length to be worn by the user around his chest, who would then rattle off into the sunset using all his covert skills as a sniper..............no doubt one of the wonders of the War Office mentality which will probably never see the light of day as to why they did that.
It made so much sense to leave the scope coupled to the rifle and build a chest to fit the same pairing, instead of a Heath Robinson Bren gun case adapted with two small padded bridges and blocks.
Apologies I tried to stay on the subject but rambled off slightly:lol:
You're right though Gil. The snipers all seemed to use an old webbing cross-strap in the tin....., you know the old drab/sandy 37 pattern with a wide bit that went across the shoulders. They'd come into workshops like this, even the L42's but because there was a protcol about the Out-Inspection regime that had to conform to Ordnance Standards, they all had to go out with the correct straps......, just like stripping all thge crap paint and sniper/tank tape off them when you KNEW that as son as the sniper took it back on the range to do his 'final' zero, he's put it back to what it was! For the same reason, the strap NEVER changed from leather. Nor did the eye caps. Daft or what..........
There were plenty of suggestions including several about the dire state of the replacement L42 fore-ends and handguards but the reports would always come back from 14MAG/REME Instectorate to the effect that ...... good idea and the person has been awarded, say, £25 for his efforts and that they appreciate the great deal of good work....blah blah blah (I know this because I used to write some of them.....) but the weapon is at the end of its service now and.......... and........ The other one was that the weapon or system is new and stockpiles of spares are high and that the suggestion will be looked at again in 10 years.......... You know the sort of thing!
It's like returning stuff to Ordnance complete to every part of the CES, even when it's written off or scrap! As soon as it gets into the R&I bay at the RSSD, it's getting the chop! Remember air dropped land rovers that have been extensively damaged or just piled in? Yep, returned to Ord complete, even with the jack, spanners and damaged beyong recognition canopy rails as I learned. And no amount of rank or status could shift the absurdity of the write-off Ordnance paper chain. Unless you were old, wise, knew the Ordnance chain/system and more importantly........., knew who to speak to that is............
Just had a thought though. At about the time when the plastic Scout Reg Scope tubes came on stream, they did try a plastic box for the No32 scope, so we're looking at the mid 80's now. The Sct Reg scope case semed to be OK but the L1A1 scope case to replace the old No8 was rubbish. The rounded corners had no give in them and they'd just crack and pop out as an almost complete circle as I remember. The ex Soldiers might remember the plastic cvased field telephones we used to use. The No8 case replacement looked a bit like that but proprtionally smaller of course. Had a strap similar to the old field telephone strap too
There, sorry to go off on yet another tangent but another bit of useless Enfield info
I was required to wash a worn-out pair of boot insoles I was turning in for a replacement - even though they would be going straight in the trash.
Ha Ha............now thats what you call service. Makes the DMS boot look unbelievably angelic doesn't it. The only thing that ever held them together was the insoles anyway. What a tragic reminder that boot was grrrrrrrrrrr.
Anyway, Peter, in answer to your reply, it was a pain certainly in our Battalions to strip the weapons continually for storage in armouries, and our Tiffy's allowed them to be racked with scopes in a section on their own. However, on inspection they were always then placed in the chests, which meant for accounting purposes the lids had to be opened and the numbers checked to ensure the scope and rifle and bolt all matched ha ha!! absolutely crazy, especially when you think all the SLR's alongside them had bloody great white numbers painted on the butts as their identifiers, and noone ever checked the working parts.
I vaguely remember an incident in the dim distant past of a DEAC being replaced on the stand as a windup which delivered the suitable bollocking to the armourer, which was the intention, as he was a real pain. "Shelves are for filling " syndrome, as he would only give egg cups of oil and treated 4x2 as if it was the shirt of his own back ha ha!! He sooned learnt.
The scope tins never really ever came out. They were marked spuriously as seen on many today in varying degrees of competancy of hand writing skills and various painted colours of the shade of green. Most of the WW2 - 1950's tins were the Austin Champ paint deep green, where other colours varied as to what was left over from painting sand green in hot countries whilst in jail :lol:
I do remember the scopes and the actions being bound in the thick blanket padding especially for parachuting, and it seemed to catch on later and was used as a substitute for the tin, contrary to SOP's at Warminster, but heyho we always were different:thup::thup:
I had to exchange a combat jacket once which was US being torn and unsightly due to jumping on a roll of barbed wire which had been thrown down a stair well during a CQB exercise. The rest of the section ran up by back to clear the upstairs and when finished they had to peel me off the wire. When I came to exchange it the QM sent me away and I had to get my housewife out and make good the numerous holes and rips be for he would exchange it!!
On the theme of L42A1 rifles....................I have just been offered one complete as issued, for............wait for it................£11,500 from a dealer in Devizes.
Now is that going to far or what?? or is this the future for this rifle at the expense of others like the Enforcer in fewer numbers??
Unfortunately Gil I think that price bracket is becoming the norm. That's the fourth L42 kit I've come across in the last year being offered for this kind of money and they don't hang around either all go off the shelf swiftly. Your No4 T proceeds and some will get swallowed up by one of those beauties!!!!! I say buy, buy, buy because you'll kick yourself when you are having this conversation again in two, three years and they are at £15000. Devizes Guns also shifted one for a similar price earlier this year, I offered him £8000 and he chinned me off.
Geez, I bought my L42A1 with chest, tin, and leather strap for $5000 about a month ago. One of the ex Navy Arms imports to the US. Guess I'd better count myself lucky.
A rifle for the rich folk only! soon the ordinary bloke on the street won't be able to afford any snipers.
If you want to pay UK prices Gill then as Chosenman says that price will become the norm, last I,ve known or seen have been starting around £5500 + but if you can stop the cash burning a hole, then look on egun ?? They seem to be the cheapest I've seen, one I was bidding on went for below around £3500 IIRC, (chime in in Waco) and another around £4000.
A club member mentioned about one recently think it was in an auction in the UK but didn't sell.
Whilst we are all quoting prices lets not gloss over an important fact in this equation. Gill said "as issued" which means the full CES is present, not a chest with rifle, scope & tin with scout reg scope. A rig complete as issued and original pieces is commanding top money. Depends if your CES nutty, I do suffer this affliction and its cost me dearly, but I just cant sleep at night whilst being tormented by a missing user manual or IWS bracket.
In no way do I wish to appear I am having a go at him, that's business and good luck to him, but this is now getting into the realms of ridiculous, for a rifle that needs to be carefully checked out before you shell out that sort of money, in very minute detail, where as at say 4k you don't mind rectifying small problems. Perhaps there should be an NHBC equivalent with the supply of these rifles or at least a guarantee until the rifling has been fired and checked to ensure it does what it says on its "gold" box
Perhaps it's time to start the Enforcer, 4T and M85 inflation race??
Understand that Chosenman, but as we both know, there can be a few little porkies told by some dealers, when the buyer has a bulge in his pants ( bulge being a wad of cash)
That's two bulges then Dukie!! Yes I hear exactly what you say and Gills suggestion of an NHBC type governing body would be ideal as whether its £4000 or £11,500 we're not talking peanuts.
Can,t see the brush in the container either, which went for £250 odd the other day on Fleabay with the container making over £500 .
On that basis an original catch on the case must be worth £1000 ............it's going crazy guys and not aimed at serious shooters of these magnificent rifles.
Now if a rifle had provenance insofar that it could be authenticated that it was used exclusively by Cpl Billy Bollocks VC that is an entirely different matter, and in part could command about £7500 max in my opinion if the story and ALL original CES was there, but that would probably be gobbled up by a collector and not a shooter.
Last time I had two bulges I was single.........
Chosenman,
Yes agreed CES MUST be what it was issued with not reproduction this or reproduction that.
It is then no way CES as I know it
Last time I had two bulges was when my gun cabinet door was open last night!!
Do members think that these snipers should be seen on the range & enjoyed or left in collections & drooled over by their owners?. There are dealers who price correctly & those who are out to fleece the shooters!!! :rolleyes:
Shoot, maintain and enjoy them. Life's too short not to. If you drool on them, (easier with a good cheek weld), make sure you wipe them off!
I shoot all mine! Not a Cabinet Queen amongst em;)
I shoot all my snipers. 4T. L42 & L96 all get a regular outing, dry days only though. However the shortage of replacement barrels is a concern. I truly consider myself a custodian of my rifles and I have a responsibility to leave good serviceable firearms to the next generation not relics that can only be stroked because the barrels are shot out. I'm currently searching for a no4 barrel, the best l42 I could lay my hands on is used and has around 3000-4000 rounds of life left in it and good luck getting hold of a spare for the L96, Border Barrels don't even return my emails.
It was actually £2,800, Geoff - in July last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
I used an importer in the UK (can recommend him if anyone is interested) that added about £200 to the cost.
That was for the rifle, scope, tin and transit chest. It wasn't the prettiest in the world having been badly stored and owned previously by someone with a vivid imagination and a paint brush!
With a little bit of sympathetic work though it looks pretty good now, and shoots beautifully.
I have the CES bug though and through some very good friends on the forum have managed to complete the CES for the rifle without having to re-mortgage the house!
Since buying the rifle there have been at least 2 more that have gone through egun for only slightly more money than I paid for mine (one from the same dealer) - so definitely worth keeping an eye out on that site.
Try Fultons for an L96 barrel.
Armalon for a No.4 barrel
Cheers for that Brian, didn't think to try Armalon. I already had Fultons one and only L96 barrel which I think had been kicking around their back room for the last 10 years, its on my ex-police rifle as I figured police barrels are probably rarer still.
Errmmm. Just thinking out loud here but if the L96 and any associated spare parts have never officially been released to Civvy street then how in Hell could Fultons have one legitimately???
I'd prefer not to think tooooooooo hard on that one!!
How Time fly's, didn't think it was that long ago, I honestly thought it was £3500 maybe thinking about Euro,s ? or was that the one that sold not long after or is that what your cut off was for the bidding ? Still one of the best deals so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by waco16
I suppose it's down to what people are willing to pay - but auctions in general are a good pointer to what the real 'market' value is (as opposed to someone who's now seen said rifle, must have it and has, er, two bulges). Will someone pay £11k? dunno - but I'm sure with a minor amount of hunting around more of a bargain could be found. They could even extend the search to the USA, where most of the L42 fleet seems to have sailed years ago, and import it back.
I seem to recall that the L42s released onto the market generally came with a much reduced CES, meaning a 'gathering' process has taken place. Personally I'm not fussed re the CES - on the practical side I wouldn't mind the binos and scout scope for use on the range, but the only thing the box can hold in the UK is expensive lens brushes, booklets and fresh air (unless someone has a voluminous secure gun room).
On the debate about shooting the rifles, I don't have qualms about taking mine down the range - after all Mrs P-E would certainly question what's the point in lashing out on the things to sit in a metal cabinet, only to be brought out to be drooled over. Anyway, putting 60-80 rounds through it a limited number of times a year's hardly going to wear them out I would have thought. In any case most of those L42 rifles will be very well used in the main, given the limited number made and the very long service period.
Just as a recap for those that have the knowledge or the rifle in front of them could someone list the definitive markings from an L42 please, a simple 1 to 10 would do, as if you read the forum bits on the rifle there are contradictory remarks.
In one article on there, there is no mention of "TR" or S51 stamps appearing on the weapon at all.
It would be a great help on an easy to follow identifier list, as I have always assumed that it followed very closely to the 4T, except the inscribed or dotted D after the L42 followed by the year of conversion at H&H and a metric turret fitted.....or am I off the mark slightly.
Also the obvious barrel change, and wood work etc
L42 Markings:
Will have the TR on wrist and T on bodywork as it was previously a 4t. Woodwork - may or may not have the S51 due to potential butt change. Rear sight will be of the Mk1 variety and will have an M on the slider as it's been converted to metres. Will have short shank king screw swivel. May or may not have loop next to this. Will have S on right side of receiver, as 4ts have (unless it doesn't! some [vdery few] didn't...). The best thing really for any prospective L42 owner is examine a few, and if that's not possible check the pics on here.
The one in the knowledge library is a very good place to start! Here's the link to the virtual picture tour:
1971 L42A1 Enfield Sniper Rifle
Yes thanks for that. The S in my opinion would be missing as the action clearly changes when it is stepped up to 7.62 or am I wrong. It does appear that there is no level playing field of a list in existence to confirm authenticity as there appears to be a lot of variations going on.
Only reason for asking is that I am soon to be examining an "L42" which was listed on a Fultons examination as having spurious markings on it, but the serial number is correct, but has clearly had some work done. I would just like to know what would be there now on an updated 4T from the original markings, which would help me no end.........so I can "buy the rifle and not the history" if that makes sense;)
Apologies, meant to say, yes I have looked closely at those photos and all shown there is present on this rifle, but there are no images of the S on the action so I assumed rightly or wrongly they would have disappeared with the new action being fitted
The receiver would be the same Gil - ie this wasn't changed for the L42 - so everything marked on the original 4t would be on the L42 including the S. It would have a new barrel and revamped rear sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil9713
I suppose knowing what markings were thought to be spurious would be the key. DId fultons examine it for someone and give a report?
If you could take pics of the markings and post them here we'd get to the bottom of it.
He said the following:
Blacked later receiver spuriously engraved L42A1D71, side-safety, fully-detachable magazine, stock with characteristic cheek-piece, comb and steel butt-plate, sling-swivels, the hammered barrel with block-mounted blade-foresight and protector, the receiver with folding open-sight and 'Tel.Strt.Stg.L1A1' telescope-sight in correct mounts.
It is believed that the receiver was originally a standard No.4 action which has been renumbered to a known rifle, but that the other parts are all original items
Summary, if you add up the sum total of all the separate parts in the transit case they would go way over the asking price at todays over egged prices for an L42's accessories
In short two ways of looking at this................new action fitted by REME or has it appeared from somewhere which then opens up a brand new line of thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
H&H had nothing to do with the upgrade to L42.
Simon, yes my slip I meant Enfield
The Re-Numbered bit stands out to me, have you run the serial # with Simon ? I remember the Scotarms Auction were an L42 was listed, but it wasn't an L42 far from it, although it was built on a No4T receiver, just a lash up, and the Scope was far from perfect but was marked as a L1A1, the biggest give away on this IIRC was the 1/4" hole drilled in the Butt socket (left side). still went for £2000 (postal bid)
I,d get some picks and see what the resident experts say Gil, but sounds like a lash up to me.
Yes Simon and I have been conferring
Gil,
I don't want to pee on anyone's cornflakes - & I could be wrong here - but Peter will I'm sure correct me once he's back in circulation next week if I am, but I would be very wary of the 're-built by the MoD with a new receiver' story. Sniper rifles, along with all rifles generally, may have new parts fitted as existing ones become worn or otherwise unserviceable - barrels, woodwork, strikers etc are obvious examples. However, the receiver (body) of the rifle is a different matter altogether: it is the MASTER COMPONENT PART, & does NOT get swapped for new parts like other components. Like I said, I may be wrong here, but if the body of the rifle had 'had it', as it were (beyond a simple repair), I would have thought that the whole equipment would have been condemned. Think about it - if you replaced the body with another one (a standard No4 rifle body) on a 4T or L42, the action would have had to be barrelled up & then machined up as per H&H's system for converting the 4T's in the first place, simply in order to ensure that the pads were positioned & machined correctly; or at least, Enfield would have had to have come up with an equivalent system for ensuring the pads were collimated with the bore - are they going to do this for one rifle when they weren't exactly short of them?
Just my tuppence worth.
ATB
Roger,
Thank you for that, and I have already been conferring with Peter on this as well. I haven't declared all my cards on the open site for obvious reasons, but as I was finding it hard to find any two L42's showing the same slight variations on marking or characteristics, I thought I would ask those in the know on the site, for a list of the obvious ones to reconfirm my beliefs in case I had missed something over the years.
You can perhaps read between the lines that we have collectively come to the same conclusion, but I am now curious as to how it rose from the ashes so to speak, and will look at it myself, and decide on a course of action from there.
So assuming it's simply a No4 action which has been converted (I presume it's this one sold by Bonham's) then it depends what you're paying. The rifle's not worth much, so you would be paying for a CES in other words - assuming that's all correct of course. The scope would be hard to fake, but there are repro tins, brackets, lens brushes (!), chests etc. It's worth banishing all hopes of it somehow being a genuine L42 before looking.
* (written as you were posting the above)
Gil,
This thread has been good to expand my own personal learning.
Was this confirmed ....
Are the "19T" proof marks with crossed flags on the bolt handle, bolt head and receiver?
What markings are present on the barrel?
Gill, I think during the conversion process the receiver was bead blasted to remove the no4 T markings, the TR should still be present though on the wrist. The S in front of the extraction port may or may not be present, mine is. The S51 on the butt stock could technically be there however sizing the butt to the sniper 30 years on from its conception means most L42's have a walnut butt without this marking I have only encountered one which still has its original S51. I live just outside Colchester if you want to see mine in the flesh PM me.
Thanks for all the comments. I have gone through it all carefully now and found the S in place the TR on the band, and the scope number on the wrist. The L42A1D71 stamp is as it should be, and the only number that is different on the whole rifle is a different number under the fore grip wood, which is not unusual and just means it had been changed at some stage, as they took a lot of stick in the supported position.
The crossed flags and the 19 ton emblem is there on the bolt. There is a spare bolt in the chest without a bolt head un etched with 19T.
No S51 but that is no big shakes, as the butt could have been changed and with the rifles known history now, that would have been more than likely.
Other than that, not sure where the summary on the rifle assessment came from and appears it was written to ensure the salesroom had a 110% rifle in front of them for sale, and all matching numbers throughout which would have been a challenge, as I have never seen any of the Lee range doing that ha ha!!!!. I will put pics up next week when its in my hands, as it has had some repair work to the butt.
Contrary to what was written on the report the action is the original or does appear so at this stage.
Well it sounds promising... look forward to seeing the pics.
From an auction house perspective, especially a prestige one like Bonham's, I suppose there's a certain amount of 'arse covering' in any description, and any doubt is likely to be magnified.
Absolutely spot on. They would only sell something that went from A to Z if M was missing in their book, it would have to have an element of doubt attributed to it.
As I said I see it in my hands next week, so I shall make the call on what I find. Only thing currently not sure about is the spare bolt and why would someone put a spare bolt in the chest that wasn't relevant..heyho we'll see
Keep in mind that if you do buy it the spare bolt is technically a pressure part and you will need a slot for it on your FAC. Yep, I know, bloody ridiculous isn't it
You can buy ten spare No4 bolts and boltheads and........... and......., if they are for your shotgun.