Info about this #4 MkI Sniper rifle.

I've been reading on here about this gun and could use some info. if you guys can help me out. Its been in this box for the past 35+ years or so and I just took it out.
The serial # is A1391 and so is the bolt. The stock is stamped 3274 behind the bolt and the underside behind the trigger guard, looks like it might be: C JC 3B S S.
It has a check piece screwed on and has a brass butt plate with a trap door containing a brass oil/grease can.
The scope box and the scope do not have matching #'s and the scope has a blue B written on it.
I gave it a quick cleaning after I took these pics and most all the rust cleaned off.
Can you guys give me any info. about it and possibly what it might all be worth?
Thanks, I'm a new guy and don't know too much about it.

It's a 1931 No.4 Mk.1 Trials Rifle Sniper Conversion (T). Quite rare. Last one I saw at action sold for $6,000. :dancingbanana:

Don't clean it much past stopping the rust! It's actually in quite good shape from what details have been shown. Value of these can only be determined by selling it at auction. But it's apt to go for quite a bit.

I agree you have quite a find there. Any No4 T is valuable but a Trials rifle particularly so. The scope is mis-matched, but that is hardly the end of the world. I would also reiterate what JM has said - please don't over clean it.

Well done!

OK, I appreciate the info. and I wont clean it too much, like you said.
Now, next question is: What/where type of auction is the right place to sell it?
Gun broker, Ebay or is there another place that specializes in these things?
Thanks again,
Chuck

Gunbroker is the best place here in the states. You might want to solicit private offers on sites like this or Guns America. You first have to determine what you are willing to let it go for.

Here's an MKL entry worth reading for research and comparisons ...

With thanks for the research analysis and assistance of Advisory Panel members Lance and Roger Payne, there's an entry in the United Kingdom - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

1933 No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper "Trials Rifle" (click here) .....

Regards,
Doug

Some more photos would be help full to determine how many parts are still in Trials configuration and/or matching like the front nose cap, stock etc. The bolt does have the early style cock with the screw in it which is correct. To get the best price if you list it, you should make sure you include enough photos of all these areas. Ray

WOW, lots of reading for me to do. From what I've read so far and looking at the pic's, everything seems to look "real". Now I have to go back and take a very close look at the points of interest as suggested.
I took more pic's today, but none came out clear, but I will retry again tomorrow.
Can't thank you all enough for your help and I really like this forum.
Oh-- and I probably will be wanting to sell this "package" after I find the truth about it and a few other "things" I have in storage also.
Back to the reading.
Chuck

Sleeping Beauty! You chose well.

Looks like it might be a REL Mk3, that or CTS...CTS I suppose since it's not "CB" marked, but only "B"

From the bottom of the Chest No15 and the rust spots it looks like things got a bit damp at times?

The original telescope was a Houghton Btcher 3274. Not one that's passed me by but two VERY close relatives have. 3272 and 3280

OK, Here's some more pic's. It has all the right things, except the scope does not match the gun. However, besides the battle scars in the wood work, it cleaned up fairly nice for its age.
The bore and chamber are like a mirror with clean rifling and the action is smooth as glass. It has some very small spots in the steel, but no serious pits. In some of the pic's, it looks like its pitted, but its actually small oil spots, that I didn't clean off perfectly, before I took the pic's. That does not mean the blue is perfect, it does have some fade and wear, but not much.
As for the Scope Tin, I don't know how that hinge got rusted, this thing has been stored in an air condition room for the past 40+ years and not been exposed to water, so I'm lost on that. I did clean most of it off, so its not so bad now.
As for selling it, I currently do not have a set price, as this is like an old collectable car and its only worth what someone is willing to pay for it and advertisement is the best way to expose it, to potential interested buyers to make offers. At this time, I don't really want to jump into putting it in an official auction, but I am going to advertise it some and see what bites. Since the scope is not a match, it is not an added value asset, so I'll probably end up separating the package if necessary.
There are several collectors who seek these rare items out, so I'm interested in seeing how much interest there is.
As for the history, My Dad , (ex Military and gun collector and gunsmith) bought this, back in about 1970-72. From an elderly woman who's husband had died years before. He was an old war vet and she said, he brought it back from the war and couldn't part with it and never shot it. It stayed under their bed for many years until he died and then many years after he died. Dad never shot it and I never have either. Its been stored in our collection for all those years and I just brought it out. However, my trigger finger is itching.
Now, I have a question; Badger posted a link to G/B for me to look at. I studied it carefully and am curious about its serial # of 1424, I thought there was only 1403 of these made??
How does that work???? Am I wrong about the #'s ?? I'm still learning.
I also noticed it was missing part of the front strap/band and appears the stock was refinished.
Your feed back is greatly appreciated,
Thanks
Chuck

Four clicks per revolution elevation adjustments on the rear sight?

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Originally Posted by catman

she said, he brought it back from the war

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You might as well forget that pat of the story. The markings near the muzzle, etc. make that hugely unlikely...

The scope adjusting tool doesn't go with that scope, but it is a nice addition to the early tin. (Might be the first trials rifle tin I've seen, BTW.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

You might as well forget that pat of the story. The markings near the muzzle, etc. make that hugely unlikely...

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JMoore is absolutely correct, those marks on the muzzle are UK civilian proof marks showing that it was sold 'out of service' into the UK Civilan gun trade, then sometime after it made its way the USA

It doesn't look as though the scope tin was matched to that rifle either as it probably carried scope 3001 originally

As is the Mk3 and bracket. Scope 20572 originally fitted to rifle G-30562. Let's see what I have on those numbers........

Nearest to lost 3001 is 3039 and a few close to 20572

Catman, to answer your question about serial numbering; it is true that as far as we know 1403 Trials rifles were converted to 4T's. However, Enfield made about 2,500 Trials rifles altogether, so only just over half of them were converted. Neither were they converted sequentially, so you could come across pretty much any serial number between 1 & 2500 when looking at a Trials T. One of mine is serialled in the 2000+ range.

Hope this helps.

ATB.

While I was doing the little book, I NEVER, ever saw that 1403 number of conversions anywhere. The nearest to that I saw was at the Small Arms School library and on a procurement paper that stated words to the effect that 'a small quantity will be available to the new wing for testing' From that, I later learned that the 'new wing' was the new sniper wing that had just moved to Bisley to escape the bombing and shelling at Hythe.

So, has anyone else seen that figure on a document........?

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

JMoore is absolutely correct, those marks on the muzzle are UK civilian proof marks showing that it was sold 'out of service' into the UK Civilan gun trade, then sometime after it made its way the USA

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Ahhh, ok, Thats good info. as I said before, that's what was told to me (I was about 12 yrs old at the time), and I don't know much about it, so I appreciate the info.
Thanks,
Chuck

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Catman, to answer your question about serial numbering; it is true that as far as we know 1403 Trials rifles were converted to 4T's. However, Enfield made about 2,500 Trials rifles altogether, so only just over half of them were converted. Neither were they converted sequentially, so you could come across pretty much any serial number between 1 & 2500 when looking at a Trials T. One of mine is serialled in the 2000+ range.

Hope this helps.

ATB.

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Yes, that does help, I'm learning more every day.
Thanks,
Chuck

---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It doesn't look as though the scope tin was matched to that rifle either as it probably carried scope 3001 originally

As is the Mk3 and bracket. Scope 20572 originally fitted to rifle G-30562. Let's see what I have on those numbers........

Nearest to lost 3001 is 3039 and a few close to 20572

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Yes, you are correct, the scope is not the correct match. I would love to find the matching scope and tool.
Thanks,
Chuck

DPL, I recall you mentioning previously that you were unable to substantiate the exact total to be 1403. It's been the 'accepted' figure for years..........in fact I can't remember for sure where I first saw it. Was it Skenny that first came up with it in 'The LES' or 'TBS'?.......................My memory's getting old like the rest of me.....................

ATB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Four clicks per revolution elevation adjustments on the rear sight?



You might as well forget that pat of the story. The markings near the muzzle, etc. make that hugely unlikely...

The scope adjusting tool doesn't go with that scope, but it is a nice addition to the early tin. (Might be the first trials rifle tin I've seen, BTW.)

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Can you tell what scope, the tool is for??
Thanks,
Chuck

Yep, that toolk is for use on a Mk1 or 2 type telescope. But to be really honest and truthful and doing a bit of straight talking which I prefer and I won't sit on the fence either. That tool is an absolute load of crap. The biggest waste of space and rations ever designed. The only sensible use is to give it to someone you don't like as a fishing weight. Or, if you have a Mk1 or 2 telescope, stick it in the box to look pretty. But never, ever use it unless a) you have three hands and b) you're trying to impress your kids. You'll impress them but noone else!

Now for the good points......... I have been using them since the early 60's and if I do come across something good to say about them, I'll come back to you all

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Yep, that toolk is for use on a Mk1 or 2 type telescope. But to be really honest and truthful and doing a bit of straight talking which I prefer and I won't sit on the fence either. That tool is an absolute load of crap. The biggest waste of space and rations ever designed. The only sensible use is to give it to someone you don't like as a fishing weight. Or, if you have a Mk1 or 2 telescope, stick it in the box to look pretty. But never, ever use it unless a) you have three hands and b) you're trying to impress your kids. You'll impress them but noone else!

Now for the good points......... I have been using them since the early 60's and if I do come across something good to say about them, I'll come back to you all

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OK, I like your style with the straight forward approach.
Thanks again for your help,
Chuck

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Originally Posted by catman

Can you tell what scope, the tool is for??
Thanks,
Chuck

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It's for earlier No.32 scopes. Mk.I and Mk.2. Useless thing. But people like to have them for completeness.

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Originally Posted by jmoore

It's for earlier No.32 scopes. Mk.I and Mk.2. Useless thing. But people like to have them for completeness.

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OK, That seems to be the general opinion.
Thanks for the input.
Chuck

Oops, didn't see Peter Laidler's response beforehand! He covers the subject far better.

But, being a realist, I have to say that all this tool does is encourage the non pro shooter/snipers to overtighten the lead screw locking nuts. Jeeeees, look at it. It's got two bloody great tommy bars sticking out of the sides of the main housing! The lead screw locking nut is the reverse screwdriver slotted ring OUTSIDE the central shaft on each turret. Better still, see the sketches in the book.

In real life, on the well manicured ranges that you are shooting them on, the lead screw locking nut has to be nipped up sufficiently to lock the lead screw shaft and NO more. If you are on the advance into Eindhoven or Antwerp in 1944, then maybe just a tad tighter!

Peter - How does this one rate on your 'usability scale' ?

Attachment 47954Attachment 47955

Just marginally worse. The snipers had the tool in the box issued and we had that big long plier type tool but really.......... The best ones were the ones you copied from the other Armourers. And they're the ones I sketch in the book. Mind you, when you were making your own, you make them to suit I suppose. The best lead screw 'key' was made from an allen key because the leg of the allen key was a perfect alignment indicator for rotating the lead screw..............

I think it's time for one of those little pictorial lessons, starting with the Mk1 and 2. That's my project for over the Xmas break

I think the quote from one of Capt. Laidler's little books is that the scope tool "gave piles a good name"!

I only said 'piles' because I was getting haemeroids and asteroids mixed up!

Then there was this one, which according to the letter that accompanied it when gifted to someone (who later sold it on to MilArm of Edmonton who sold it on eBay back in 2000) was one of a few made up for use at RSAF Enfield when zeroing newly converted No4(T)s. If that was the case, and there seems to be no reason to doubt the claim, then perhaps they were sent on to Holland & Holland when the job of conversion was transferred there?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../12/mlap-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

[Can't get the photos to upload - maybe later]

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Not sure what the problem may be. I just tested uploading function, which hasn't changed in 7 years... and it seems to be fine for me.

Anyway, if you want to email me the content to badger@milsurps.com, I'll post it for you.

Regards,
Doug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The original telescope was a Houghton Btcher 3274. Not one that's passed me by but two VERY close relatives have. 3272 and 3280

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I'd love to find the matching scope for this, if you come across it, Please let me know.
Thank you for all your help.
Chuck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Badger

Not sure what the problem may be. I just tested uploading function, which hasn't changed in 7 years... and it seems to be fine for me.

Anyway, if you want to email me the content to badger@milsurps.com, I'll post it for you.

Regards,
Doug

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No idea Doug, they're JPGs small enough and never had a problem before. Were on a remote drive, but even moved to My Documents I get an exclamation mark and the red X next to each file as soon as I click "upload"