Cracked Right Lug........

Just stepping up to the line as I was sticking a fresh mag in.. Noticed a cracked right lug on my favorite NPM shooting carbine.
Had to of broke last time out shooting LC 72.
Mixed emotions... Glad I seen it.......... But bummed also :bitch:. NPM bolt thought to be original to this carbine.
My first ever failure.
Can't get the picture that BQ posted with 1/2 a dozen bolts lined up with busted/cracked right lugs out of my mind now.

CH-P777

---------- Post added at 04:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------

Be back later, have to finish some .357 loads.

I know how you feel Charlie...I assembled a Winchester carbine, early number receiver that had been re-finished. I was shooting and suddenly a failure and the bolt was halfway back. I had cracked the receiver all the way along the track for the left hand guide...that one was finished. Stripped it for parts and had the receiver de-registered...

Dang, makes me want to use my spare round bolt in my correct Winchester when I shoot it! I would die if the correct bolt cracked!

IMR,
You have a good point, swapping shooting bolts.
It's no secret the bolt is the carbines weak link.

Out of my collection I only display about 12 or so. I have about 3 I keep in hard cases ready to run to the range with. Project barreled receivers etc are kept on or near the work bench. The ones I don't display are safely locked away and greased for long term storage.
This particular NPM carbine has the type III bayo band and adj rear sight.
Every thing else I checked looked as though it was as issued.
Decided at one time or another to shoot this one.
I'd guess that I've fired about 1500 rds thru it.
All rounds being fired were my own W296 15Grn reloads.
This one and only time I filled a mag with GI LC 72, I think is when it cracked. But I can't be positive as I had run a few hundred rds that day. Just happened to be finishing off the day with a 15 rd mag with the LC and I'll admit at a rapid fire to show off to fellow range members.
I'll tear in to it in the next few days, but can't see any other damage. This hairline crack looked like a scratch until I ran my finger nail across it and felt the raised edge.
I'll post some pictures of it when I get it stripped down (If anyone wants to see?)
It sucks because I just traded off the last 2 NPM flat bolts I had earlier this spring or late last year.
I have spare bolts........... but would prefer to put another NPM bolt in it.
Looks like I have some canvassing to do to locate another. Hopefully a trade for wood, or purchase outright.
Just happy it wasn't catastrophic.
Feeling a little better knowing y'all feel my pain.
Here's few quick pictures taken from my desk.
The view always makes me feel better.
Gotta go, She's in there yelling it's time for me to eat :surrender:

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e7ba2375-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...62312949-1.jpg

Sometime you'll have to introduce us to them all, right to left sort of thing...including the little Winchester (or is that Remington) pump and 870...

Yep, Charlie, that did it. I just went and put my spare round bolt in the WInchester for my upcoming shooting session. It was supposed to be at my son's in So-Cal this weekend, but I had to postpone it because my totally disabled older brother had to move in this last week. He needs 24/7 care and monitoring. It will be a couple months until we can get him into a Veterans home. I plan on going to the local range in the next couple weeks, though and doing some 100 yard carbine and PTR 91 shooting.

Charlie,
I've got a flat NPM bolt marked N14 - blue (not with a felt marker either!) - it has an unmarked firing pin and a U marked extractor. If that's what you need, I could trade for some stock work or something. I think there's a picture of it already on here somewhere - it was on my 5.4 Inland and I started a thread about it when I got it. You can probably search out the picture faster than I can. PM or email me if it's the one you need. You've done a lot to help me out, and I'd like to return the favor. - Bob

Anyone ever have a round bolt crack??????

USGI,
PM sent......... Thank you.
See y'all Monday.

Cheers,
CH-P777

---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 PM ----------

IRM,
I believe the picture BQ had posted way back also showed a round bolt.
Just not sure if it was one before they had the extra meat under the Extractor plunger.
IIRC,
CH-P777

Charlie,

Sent you a couple emails about the bolt. :cheers:

Bob

Nice wood too.

I'd sure check that left side rail on your NPM. BQ says that most all bolt failures are caused by problems with that left side slot. You could just change it out and have the same thing happen again. I have some of the LC 72 or 74 that CMP was recently selling. I normally use my reloads too, but the LC stuff sure didn't seem to be very hot at all. Feeds and runs the gun well, but not some HV stuff.
I guess we should expect failures in 70 year old weapons made in a big time rush. The bolts, f.p, and extractors were the most troublesome parts, mostly because of poor heat treatment.
D

Sounds like I'll have the house (plus pets) to myself Tuesday.
I'll tear into it then and pass along anything I find.
Too many irons in the fire to be able to concentrate on it today.

Wanted to mention (since mentioning pets) I've been listening to the Milsurps radio while on.
My Daughters: " Left home for the parents Love bird " goes nuts when it hears some of the old military tunes.... Especially Fife and drum. I should U tube it.

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777

Attachment 48047 Very nice painter :)

Very nice topaz!
That's the only kind of 'Crowd' I am comfortable in.
1 or a 100 they are just so warm and cozy... Ha!
Now if that were a people crowd of say 1 million, I can guarantee the weirdest SOB in the bunch will come find me. Someone about like that sign language guy down in South Africa :ugh:

I took a couple pictures of that cracked NPM Bolt before I tear it out.
Standing in the shade of the covered roof at my local range, like I stated earlier it looked like a scratch or piece of rag fuzz. After stepping out in the sun shine and running my fingernail over it... I knew it was trouble.
Started trying to remember it's last shooting session and seem to recall a different metallic sound as I finished up, but can't be positive if it broke/cracked on the last couple shots or a few mags before the last serenade. I do recall finishing up firing it as hard as it would cycle.

If anyone is interested I'll take more pics after I take it down.

Charlie-Painter777

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...52cfa042-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3bd2b266-1.jpg

Good wake up call for me I totally forgot about Flat Bolt lugs . I think that's why the Round Bolt came about right ? Funny about 3 months ago I replaced a Winchester Round Bolt for a Flat one . Everything on my Winchester was early War except the Bolt and the Rear Sight . The Bolt was a no brainer but replacing a Rear Sight is something I won't do .

Kosmo,
You might want to read this:
Weekend Inland Mishap

Pulled the Bolt. I can see the crack carries on toward the back of the right lug, down to the hole for the Extractors stem.
Carbine is pretty greasy.... but don't see any chamber damage at this time.
I'll clean up the Receiver and look/feel closely for any burrs on either inner rail.

Charlie-Painter777

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8d4b7720-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4c44e279-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f14de597-1.jpg

Wow! That thing is ready for a catastrophic failure.

IIRC, the pressure is absorbed by the right lug, with the left lug having a back-up function.

DaveHH,
" BQ says that most all bolt failures are caused by problems with that left side slot. " I believe he posted something like this on CMP a while back.
I do not see how that can be true. The left lug does not take any load. It is a safety catch if the right lug breaks. If you check the drawings and add up the tolerances, the left lug is to be 0.001" +0.003" farther back than the right lug. The location of the right lug is 1.191" +.002".
Also a GI test bolt only has a right lug. I am sure if you had a receiver that was perfect on the minimum side and the left lug took some load, that would really help the bolt. But designed to do that does not seem to be the case.

Hi Bub,
I believe that his information is about how a rough left rail can inhibit full closing. It could also be that a beat up left lug can be in contact and move the load bearing right lug away from contact with its recess which would in fact bust it eventually. I believe what he says since he knows about a zillion more things about carbines than I do. I'll leave it to him to explain.

Another morning with the hum of a snow thrower in my ear.
So only had time today to pull the bolt apart, clean it and grab a few pictures.
I can see that the crack travels across the top, along the back edge of the Rgt lug on to the hole for the Extractors' stem.
Crack continues thru the stem hole passing along the hole the firing pin travels thru.
Really hard to get pics of inside this area, but think I've got em.
Left lug seems fine to me.
The webbing below the Extractor stayed in tact, probably the reason it didn't fly apart (yet)
Hope to inspect the Receivers' inner rails in the next day or so.

Not trying to bore y'all, but hoping you'll keep a thought of this in a distant corner of your mind. My eyes aren't the best but I feel really fortunate to have seen this. A cracked bolt was the last thing on my mind that particular day. Could have very easily been over looked. To be honest, It wasn't until I felt the raised edge (only felt from one direction) that I was sure it was cracked.

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4e89c612-1.jpg



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d41aa3a7-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ba6d9968-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7ac49fd9-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...731c5a03-1.jpg

No bore at all, perfect lesson for guys like myself who have yet to own a carbine..

I was just noticing the slight wear area just to the right of (behind) the left lug in the first picture - curious if that might indicate any of the conditions DaveHH was talking about in previous posts? I'll dig out the bolt I have and see if it looks the same. Snow plow is ready here, but still haven't needed to get it out yet! :cheers: - Bob

DaveHH
What you said sounds possible about the left rail causing problems. Thanks, and I agree with you. Brian has forgot more than I will ever know.

I checked my bolt today and the area behind the left lug has the same vertical lines as Charlie's - just not as polished on mine. Looks like it's just the way that they were made. - Bob

Hey Charlie, where did you get those most excellent gun racks?

I got some just like 'em! ;-)

A couple of things: I used to think that Winchester had rough unfinished parts. The Winchester bolts look like a Ferrari compared to the almost new Inland round bolt. It looks like a Nash Rambler. No wonder they could turn them out so fast. That thing has more scratches, nicks, and rough spots than anything I've seen. The finish is also substandard compared to the Winchesters.
Also, wow does that H110 powder leave a bunch of crud all over the place. The bolt looks like it hasn't been cleaned in years and I've only shot it a few times since a complete takedown for the Data sheet. Anyway the bolts all look good as far as integrity.

Your misfortune has made all of us a bit safer.

Yep, Charlie, you may have saved me a bolt! Your experience has caused me to put up[ the WInchester flat bolt and use an Inland round one I have for general shooting! It would absolutely SUCK to have an original Winchester with a replacement bolt because the original on cracked. I would like to at least find a Winchester round bolt, but that's not terribly likely!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

Also, wow does that H110 powder leave a bunch of crud all over the place.

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:ugh: How many grains are you using - close to 15.0 with 110gr. FMJ bullets? Thanks. - Bob

Yeah something close to 15. It is apparently not a good idea to load lighter charges with this powder. I've loaded carbine with 2400, H110, W296, IMR 4198 but the best is WC840 pulled powder from Bartletts. 110 Remington and Hornady bullets.

Dave, are you meaning WC 820? I had some Vietnam era LC carbine ammo that I believe was loaded with 13.0 grains of WC 820. Very fine granules, and did seem to burn cleaner. About the time I figured out what it was, it was no longer readily available. I've only loaded carbine ammo with H110 and WW296 which nowadays apparently, are exactly the same thing. - Bob

About 10 years ago I had a complete original early Underwood with a type 2 bolt. Beautiful blue finish on the bolt and as I was shooting factory FMJ the carbine jammed. The right lug had broken off and inside the area were the lug attached to the bolt body was a void in the center and that is where it had let go. I was never able to find a bolt as nice as that one was. I still have the broken bolt as I kept it to remind me about shooting the originals so I just use my late Inland and Winchester for shooting now.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

I still have the broken bolt as I kept it to remind me about shooting the originals.

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Exactly where I am with this Bruce. We had a huge discussion about shooting originals...this is exactly what I spoke, of and would just cringe to have it happen to me. Maybe they don't deteriorate with age, but how do you make this better?

The stuff Bartlett sent me (he said) used 13.5 a round so you are probably correct. I am leaning away from shooting my two originals, but I am also curious about which one shoots the best and it is probably the NPM I bought as a shooter. CMP selected a nice IBM barreled example when I wanted a shooter. It came with an Inland I cut stock (marked with a .U. rebuild stamp) a quality RP and a Rockola Hammer. The TH was NPM probably the original part. It can hold the 10 ring on an SR-1 at 100 yds. The Inland is so new that I think that it should shoot better than it does.

I guess I lean heavy the other way. I have shot all my carbines. After all they are combat weapons, designed to be shot not safe queens. If something were to break, I have spare parts.
I'm skeptical when someone says they have an "original". Who really knows if what we like to call our originals, and I think I have some, are the way they came out of the factory. I think most guns that sell as originals have had something done to them. Maybe a part changed in the field. Or after the war. It could be the same type and marking. Even later someone dressing it up to look original.

I think unless it was a presentation gun, with provenance, it has been shot. And probably more then we think.

But that's just my 2¢

I understand that Jim, but with my LL M1(which we aren't talking about here) if I broke the op rod, where in Canada could you get something like that replaced? I'd have to move to Oregon...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I understand that Jim, but with my LL M1(which we aren't talking about here) if I broke the op rod, where in Canada could you get something like that replaced? I'd have to move to Oregon...

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Or, Jim, you could go down and visit Bill in Oregon, and take care of things.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

visit Bill in Oregon

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Sometimes it almost comes to that...really...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Sometimes it almost comes to that...really...

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You could always "visit" Northern California where I live, also..... LOL

Bernie:D

I agree with Jim, pretty much. My Winchester is still original, though I have put my round bolt in for the upcoming So-Cal watermelon demolition derby (the one that was scheduled for earlier this month but was postponed), as we will probably shoot 800+ rounds. For my own casual plinking and local Mil-Surp 100 yard matches, though, I will probably use the original flat bolt.

Now if I was going to use it as a patrol carbine for the high country security contract I had, I'd put it in an Inland M2 potbelly stock, M2 catch for using 30 rounders, and flip safety to keep it from getting beat up and improve reliability. Since I recently gave that contract up in favor of one 10 minutes from home with 8 hour days (instead of that contract with its hour plus commute each way and the 12 hour shifts) I am too old for 15 hour work days!

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

"visit" Northern California

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Well, I was close enough last summer. I was in Santa Barbara...sill in the southern half, but closer than I am now.

I'm afraid that if I lived there I would rarely leave Victoria. What a beautiful place and good weather too.

When we lived in Seattle area (up towards Snoqualamie Pass), we would go to BC and camp at Horseshoe Bay, north of Vancouver, and across from Victoria. We also took the kids to Stanley Park and the zoo. It was our tradition on either father's day or mother's day.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

I would rarely leave Victoria

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I probably won't actually move away, but it does get tired here sometimes.