Well used No. 4 T

Happy New Year everyone! Thought I'd post a few shots of my '43 BSA No. 4 T which I've had for about two years. Previous owner had it for 30+ years and may have bought it direct from an importer. He was having some trouble selling it as it lacks many of the "standard" marks: no "T" on left side, no "S" on cutoff boss. As received, it only displayed a "TR" on left cheek and a sanded "S51" under wrist of butt. No "D6E" stamp in normal spot but I could see a faint hint of something under the thick black paint adjoining the "D7E" on the right. A touch of paint stripper revealed a rather poorly stamped apparent "D6E" on the right flat. It came with a genuine bracket (numbered to this and two previous rifles) and I think I can see two earlier scope serials on the wrist in addition to the number of the Mark 3 currently residing on it. All this maybe speaks to wartime attrition of equipment as there is a (Maltby?) FTR indicated and the gun came with a '45 dated 5 groove barrel which is shiney and new looking. The previous owner didn't want to shoot out the 5 groove barrel and replaced it with an equally newish 2 groover and she will shoot 1.5 MOA groups all day (I have the '45 barrel). This is largely due to the crisp and highly functional Mk 3 scope which was serviced by Warren. I love the well worn look and implied service history- what do you guys think?

Ridolpho

Looks nice and honest to me but I can't imagine pulling and replacing the perfect, original barrel from it's last true FTR. You're lucky it didn't cause problems because fitting barrels for No.4T rifles is a very touchy select fit process. The scopes were collimated and a simple barrel change could change everything. Too weird!

Brian: Yes, I really wish he had left the post FTR barrel on but (and I've met this fellow face to face) he was fairly heavily into range shooting and seemed concerned about preserving the 5 groover. The barrel swap seems to have been well done and the bracket (by fluke?)remains very well collimated to the bore. Had to drill out a ruined clamp screw on the bracket and while the scope was off I slapped a centered test scope in and it bore-sighted nearly perfectly.

Ridolpho

If your original tele number was 8284 on rifle AF0806, here's another similar combination. 8377 Originally fitted to No4T AG-3485. Now a DP L59A1

Brian, you ain't wrong about barrel changes. About a year ago I was cajoled into changing a totally shot out L42 barrel for a not-too-bad replacement L39 barrel. Didn't collimate very well at all so spend ages centring telescope and re-fitting pads and bracket in order to collimate and all that stuff. Then a few months ago the person, a friend of a friend....., you know the sort of thing said that it was all over the place. So it came here again and he was right! It WAS all out of collimation and they'd even xxxxxd about with the telescope to try to sort it out.

Then it dawned on me................ The barrel that I'd replaced wasn't the one that was on there NOW! Oh, no....... The person had used THAT barrel somewhere else and ....., anyway. I finally got to the bottom of it, told him what'd happened, picked up the now totally stripped barrel and body, tele from bracket and told him to take it to the person who'd changed the barrel and left the painted-over graunch marks that he intimated were left by me.

Yep, barrel changes on No4T's and some L42's not to be undertaken lightly in my opinion, having done one or two

Ridolpho,
Looks sound to me mate as well, and certainly looks the genuine part in well used wood and metalwork. As has been said before many times on the site, if most but not all of the stamps are there, it invariably is OK.
Is the S showing stamped on the forward position of the ejection port, right side of the rifle as the scuffed what looks like a big W may be obscuring it?

Gil9713: I can't see any hint of it but the paint is very thick there. Perhaps some more paint stripper.

Ridolpho

A real British FTR will have Suncorite 259 paint on it. I wouldn't strip it, just leave it alone as original. Paint may be obscuring the finish 'T" mark too but either way, it's right as rain.

Interesting that the bolt knob has a flat and no hole. A replacement at FTR or one brought in from another factory to make up a temporary short-fall at M47?

The way the aperture has been removed from the backsight may indicate that it is someone's replacement also.

Overall a very genuine looking rifle with obvious history. In many ways more interesting than a pristine rifle that spent its life in stores.

Surpmil: A couple of additional shots of the bolt. It is numbered to match the rifle but I've always assumed its an FTR replacement. The AF0806 appears to have been struck twice. I've also shown a shot of the underside of the front of this No.4 Trials or early type forend. Thanks.

Ridolpho

It's not brilliantly stamped & my eyes aren't what they used to be, but could that be a broad arrow within a C stamped onto the bolt handle? The style of the numbering of the bolt handle certainly has a 'post war re-matched' look to me (rather than it being supplied to BSA at the time of the rifle's manufacture by another contractor due to a shortfall in BSA's own production of bolt bodies). Not withstanding that, it's a nice used but not abused rifle. I'd give it house room!

ATB

I know this isn't what you're talking about, but I'd put the original barrel back and have it that way. In years to come guns like this shouldn't have to bear an explanation to the buyer. They should be able to speak for themselves...yes, it shoots. But they didn't come with 2 groove BBls...

BAR: I agree and might do that (if I run into anyone here in Calgary that I think can do it without ruining the action body). I wonder, though, if some FTR'd T's might not have received 2 groove barrels- were original H&H criteria continued post war? In any case, this one will be with me until I pack it in as I love the character in addition to it being just about the best shooter in my safe at present. The trigger is incredible and all I've done with the rifle is a bit of work on the bedding.

Ridolpho

I'm sure some of these can tell us true if the 2 groove was ever used. Unfortunately, I can't send you to anyone that can do the change without dog-earing the receiver corners...it can be easy or hard...no telling which...

I don't know how many but certainly a few early conversions slipped through with 2 groove barrels as originally fitted. I have seen Savage Mk1* T's & IIRC an early Maltby that appeared still to bear their original tubes. Never seen nor heard of 2 groovers on 43 to 45 rifles though, other than Indian refurbs. Over all I can't imagine many slipped thorugh the 'specification reject' net.

ATB.

Good to know Roger, up until now all I've heard is "NO" 2 groove barrels were installed. Now I know...it makes sense too that some might have slipped by.

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Originally Posted by Ridolpho

BAR: I agree and might do that (if I run into anyone here in Calgary that I think can do it without ruining the action body). I wonder, though, if some FTR'd T's might not have received 2 groove barrels- were original H&H criteria continued post war? In any case, this one will be with me until I pack it in as I love the character in addition to it being just about the best shooter in my safe at present. The trigger is incredible and all I've done with the rifle is a bit of work on the bedding.

Ridolpho

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Check your PM's.....

That's now correct. Some two groove barrels certainly were accepted. However, this is slightly contrary to the original spec which states quite clearly that the 'production' No4T rifles must '........conform to the original specification in every other way..........' and goes on to say in flowery words that the exceptions are the modified backsight and the addition of mounting pads to the bodyside '.....and the letter T following the designation as indicative of its telescope status'.

The original rifle spec of course was a five groove barrel and a Mk1 type foresight block band. And we know that the un-split block bands exist too.............even on L42's as well although whether these un-split block bands were fitted in error at Base Workshops during barrel changes is another matter.

I never found anything to contradict the 'original rifle spec' criteria (5 groove/split block - or what about brass v Mazak brass butt plate now that I come to think of it -) but thinking about it, by the time of the introduction of these features into normal rifle production, then I suppose that these features were STANDARD/acceptable/approved production - if not ORIGINAL production. Quite clearly and for obvious reasons, the Mk2,3 and 4 backsights were never options

And as proved time and time again over the past 70 years, 2 groove barrels ARE as acurate as 5 groovers AND out last them and even though I never ever saw a 2 groove No4T, then the proof is in the pudding as they say

Not a 4T owner, certainly not an expert but I wouldnt swap a barrel on a perfectly good shooter.

This has been an interesting informative thread - and part of its history.

I'd shoot it, keep rifle and barrels and this thread all together to continue its journey.

Just my 2c

John

I agree with Gunner above. As an Armourer and an engineer to boot, I am a believer in the saying that if it ain't broke, then I ain't fixin' it! As for the rifle in the future, then it is what it is. Been into an Armourers shop probably many times and had parts repaired or replaced and so on

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ridolpho

Surpmil: A couple of additional shots of the bolt. It is numbered to match the rifle but I've always assumed its an FTR replacement. The AF0806 appears to have been struck twice. I've also shown a shot of the underside of the front of this No.4 Trials or early type forend. Thanks.

Ridolpho

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Is it possible that the number on the bolt was electro-penciled at FTR and then someone later decided they wanted something more "definite" than that and so over-stamped it?

Surpmil: With magnifying glass it looks like an earlier stamp- doesn't appear to be "electropencil"- however it's very possible someone attempted to "enhance" the appearance. Thanks to everyone for all their feedback in this thread. Warren has directed me to a qualified gunsmith that can do a re-barrel safely but I'll likely test them with another project and leave this one as-is for now.

Ridolpho