1873 Trapdoor what is wrong with it although I like it

This past weekend I got talked into buying a 1873 Trapdoor rifle to help a gentleman at our club who is dying of kidney disease. It had supposedly looked up the value of the rifle on the net and felt it should be worth $800. I wanted to help but was only going to pay what I thought was a fair and reasonable price for it.
I was told by the guy selling it for him (he is in a nursing home) that his father had had it refinished about 20-25 years ago. Going there I didn’t know if they had touched the metal or not.
Looking at it I could see that the metal was all original, not reblued. Not much case color left on the flip up part of the receiver although there is some on the tang. The refinish of the stock looked nice BUT they lost the cartouche on the side of the stock but the Circle P is barely there.
The sideplate was either buffed a long time ago or rubbed a lot or had a light stamping, the US is half there and the Springfield can only be made for the last couple letters ELD but you have to look close.
The Serial Number is 7964
The bayonet is original and period.
The cleaning rod doesn’t have any rings at the base of it.
The rear sight is Buffington, wonder if I should change it for the correct sight?
I am not sure the age of the shoulder strap, is it original?
The bore was black but is starting to clean up, seems to be some sort of old grease or cosmoline in there, the patches continue to come out brown, but the rifling looks strong.

With all the problems I offered $400 for rifle and bayonet and we settled on $450

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Based on that serial number it will take a great deal more than a change in rear sight to bring this piece to "Correct" configuration. The breech block, hammer, and stock are the most obvious later patterns not correct to the serial number. The cleaning rod end looks odd as well, and appears to have been pushed too far into the channel, as normally when properly seated the cleaning rod tip will be closely alligned with the muzzle. The stock does appear to have been sanded and refinished as the metal parts appear slighly elevated. If the barrel is marked with V, P, (eagle head), P in vertical order near the receiver the barrel is a replacement as well.

The sling is a commercial product and not military at all.

There is nothing "wrong" about the rifle, as parts were replaced in rebuild, (and this piece does appear to have been through rebuild) and parts replaced by useing units. The receiver does provide an opportunity to restore the rifle to original condition, but concidering the number of components that would have to be replaced of an earlier pattern that would be a pretty expensive project.

The V, P and something are in a vertical stack on the side of the barrel near the receiver with a N on top of the barrel. The cleaning rod as seen in 6th picture is pretty much even with the end of the barrel, the other picture it is the angle that make it look to far in, but it doesn't have any rings on the base of it (opposite end from the slot end)
Sounds totally rebuilt, which is fine to me, I didn't buy it as a collector piece I bought it as a shooter to go with my repro Carbine. I am not planning to redo it at all. Plan to shoot it with BP sometimes and Trail Boss usually

I was told by a local dealer and Sharps shooter that the bayonet is correct, so that is something at least.

Do you think I over paid for it at $450 (with bayonet) ? I only wanted to pay $400 but got talked into $450 to help the owner at the end of his life. It may not have been a deal but I hope it is about where it should be

At $450 you did great.
Cock the hammer back and make sure you are not missing another number on the ser#.

Charles

Just checked, it is definitely 4 numbers. I figure the bayonet is worth about $100 so paid $350 for the gun. I put a 45/70 snap cap in it and the trigger works great. Since I can't get to the range until this weekend, I thought to put a case with a primer in it (nothing else) and see if it pops when fired, can do that inside.

Took it to the range yesterday, the first cartridge didn't want to go into the chamber more than halfway, the second I was able to force in and then it took some doing to close the trap.

I had cleaned the bore and chamber for about 2 hours of scrubbing. I was using 15 grains of Trail Boss to push a 300 gr bullet. It shot great! BUT the case wouldn't eject. I used a range rod to pop it out.

The last inch of the case by the rim was nice and smooth (the part of the chamber you could see from the breach) the next inch and a half for so looked like the surface of the moon. I took it to Santuri the gunsmith in N. Attleboro MA and he looked at it and the case and said the chamber was totally pitted with rust pits and is a wallhanger. He said I could ream it out but then it would be so loose that it would split cases shot in it. Although he did say if you used light enough loads they may not split, but would be worked quite a bit.

:slap:

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Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright

The last inch of the case by the rim was nice and smooth (the part of the chamber you could see from the breach) the next inch and a half for so looked like the surface of the moon.

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What a pity! As a shooter it would have been a very good price. If you look at my contributions you will see that I have tackled (and shoot!) some pretty dire looking rifles, so it takes a lot before I declare a rifle to be hopeless, but I had the same problem recently on a sporterized Mauser M1871. Eventually I reluctantly faced up to reality and scrapped it - no use for shooting and no collector value.

I am sitting here wondering, if the chamber were reamed out to get rid of the pits would that make it unsafe to shoot? Santuri did say that with light loads you might not split the cases. Since it is a wall hanger I should call him and ask him how much he would charge to do that and would it be safe to shoot that way.

I don't know about that chamber reaming business, sounds an awful lot like something bubba would do. If it were mine I'd just rebarrel it.
Wait a minute, you said you had to force the round in the chamber, sounds like theres some sort of build up preventing it from entering freely. Just pits alone wouldn't prevent it from doing so. Before I did anything harsh like reaming I'd clean the chamber more.

I'm with Vintage hunter...this could be a case of rust blisters or huge build up in the chamber. I'd make good and sure it was clean and I'm seeing actual pits before throwing in the towel. If you have to force a cartridge in, there's something in the way...

Pull the breach plug & scrub the hell out of chamber with one of those copper Chor-boy scrubbers. What you do is get a 410 brush & wrap a piece of the scrubber around it & use some penetrating oil, etc. If you have a cleaning rod that breaks down into 3 sections, then chuck it in an electric drill & do it to it.

Sounds about right...one way anyway.

You know you guys may be correct. I had spent about 2 hours running a brass brush up and down the bore from the muzzle end, but would that do anything for the chamber?

what is the best way to clean the chamber on a 45/70 trapdoor, you can't use a solid cleaning rod from the rear due the shape of the receiver

You may have to soak it with penetrating solutions first. I doubt you have the equipment to unscrew the breech end. It's not hard, but if you haven't done it you may not want to start here.

Pulling the breach plug is quite simple. Chuck the receiver top up in a hefty vise. You will notice that the plug is tapered on the under side of the tang. Use a big adjustable wrench, the bigger the better & grab the tapered part from under , tighten the jaws & un screw it. If you don`t have a big wrench, you can put a cheater pipe on it & do it to it. You won`t break the receiver, but you might break the wrench. LOL

I have a 3 foot long adjustable wrench, used on the battleship Massachusetts, so that shouldn't be an issue (it weighs a ton)

I am trying a wire brush in a drill first as the cartridges won't go all the way in without excessive force so there may be rust bubbles or something

I see 1884 barrels on Ebay and Guns International, are the 1884 barrel receiver groups interchangeable with the 1873?

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Originally Posted by OLDER THEN DIRT

grab the tapered part from under , tighten the jaws & un screw it. If you don`t have a big wrench, you can put a cheater pipe on it & do it to it. You won`t break the receiver, but you might break the wrench.

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If you don't take some care, you are likely to seriously distort the edge of the tang. Been there, done that, learn from my mistakes!

Going at it like a berserk plumber is not the way, even if your impress-your-friends wrench ("mine is longer than yours":madsmile:) is a yard long and was recycled from a battleship.
It is worthwhile taking some time and trouble to add in a wedge-shaped piece of soft-ish iron, bronze or brass to form a reasonably parallel-sided block together with the taper on the tang. You can then apply an adjustable wrench much more securely and with a greater torque without FUBARing the tang.

---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright

I am trying a wire brush in a drill first

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But for heavens sakes, not a steel brush! Better would be first to dunk the breech end in an electrolytic bath for an hour or two, which will convert that hard rust into a black sludge that will brush out much more easily - with a bronze or brass brush!

I just got back from friends house we used a bore light to check the chamber and it appears to be mostly gunk solidified in there. We used an older 12 ga. bronze brush to clean the chamber and now the cases slide right in, and it looks pretty good. I will take it to the range Saturday and see what the fired cases look like.

Can't wait...bet it works fine. If it does, you'll have to send that "Gunsmith" a card...(he was going to ream your chamber)

Finished cleaning the chamber, the cases pop right out and are nice and smooth, no marks from the chamber.

It is shooting about 10 inches high at 50 yards with a 300 gr bullet and 15 grains of Trail Boss, I just loaded some 405 gr bullets behind 28 grains of 5744 and am expecting about 1300 fps vs. the 900 fps from the TB

If it still shoots high I will monkey with the front sight. Our club only has a 50 yard range and want to use it in the military shoots, I do have access to a 100 yard range but don't get there much.

One thing I noticed that while the barrel has the one piece sight (I picked up the Collectors Guide to the 45-70 at the gun show) this gun is a real mix of parts. With so many different parts I don't think it has any real collector value so I was thinking a building up the front sight with some JB weld once I find the load it likes the best.

Thanks for getting back to us, so many don't. Glad the chamber worked out...hard to say what would have happened with the gunsmith you saw. He may have fiddled with it and handed it back for cash telling you he fixed it...Magic you know...I should think with a bit of adjusting your loads you can get this to shoot to point of aim. No sight fiddling needed. There'll be more to tell you about that shortly...that's exactly the kind of gun I'd like to find. Parts gun that I can shoot...

It also looks great! and didn't blow up when I shot it :cheers:

IIRC the Buffington rifle sight is calibrated for 500gr round nose bullets at around 1100 fps and with the ladder down it's set for either 300 or 500 yds, can't remember which atm. With the ladder raised the lowest range setting with the triangular u-notch is 200 yds but by using the peep hole it's possible to get it on target at 100, or so I found with mine. OK for target shooting but In the end I made a taller FS from a copper penny and filed it to shoot dead on at 100 just for hunting, critters don't always allow time for flipping the ladder up.
Glad the chamber cleaned up ok without any pits.

FWIW, you could get a complete lock or lock plate for cheap off e-bay if you care enough and recoup those markings.

Hi Ben Cartwright: If you are still having problems with your trapdoor, pm me and I can probability can help you out. I'm just south of you in RI and have access to a 300 yd range.
I've rebuilt a few trapdoors, let me know.
webfoot10

Somebody appears to have tried to erase the U.S. and the eagle + Springfield markings. Possibly it was put together out of parts by the surplus dealers in the era when these guns were completed with whatever parts they could get.