A very specific question re. SMLE No1Mk3 (NO star!)

Hi folks, well I went to my gunsmith for a few odds and ends, and of course I always look at what Lee Enfields he has.

To my surprise, he had this 1916 LSA sportered No1Mk3:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fea68c0b-1.jpg

And the bore isn't too too bad!

So of course, I'm tempted to refurb it "à la" no star. I do have the rear long range volley sight arm, Numrich has repro front long range dial assembly and inletted forend... I have the mag cut-off... BUT:

I think the mag cutoff screw hole is buggered up.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e9394f0d-1.jpg

I would like to know if anyone can lend me, or direct me to a source where I could buy, a tap for that one, to clean this hole... I know it's a lot to ask, but I have to try!

Lou

On the other hand Lou, it looks to me like the thread has gone too. So you could just drill or bore out the threaded hole oversize using the inner end as a pilot for alignment. Then thread it with a fairly standard for the era BA size and machine a BA screw to suit or just turn up an exact replica screw but with a BA thread.

Where there's a will, there's an easy way I always say

Hmm, you have a good point, Peter. (a regular occurence, isn't it).

I'll take a closer look, I have a small, hand-held microscope, just for these kinds of mysteries.

Louis

I just feel that even if anyone had the tap for that original thread they very probably woiuldn't lend it out..... But as I often say, I could be wrong - and if the thread is knacked anyway.....

Looks to me like the edge of the cutoff block got bumped, effectively staking the screw in place and someone then tried to drill it out and a bit off centre. How deep did they go Lou?

A worthy project there. Just a word of warning. All of the volley sight Inletted forends I have seen online except the EFD repro ones are the later straight type without the 'bulge' as such the inletting for the dial plate comes closer to the bottom of the forend than it should. My ratty mk III has a ratty forend which I Inletted myself as it had the bulge to take the dial plate.

I don't think a 1916 LSA would have had the volley sight. My 1916 Enfield and 1916 BSA MkIII don't, but they do have the cut off.

Good point, though it would have originally had the bulged forend, We look forward to seeing it returned to its former beauty.

My thoughts are that it is in Mk3* configuration as it left service. The screw could have been broken at the time it was up graded. To do any thing else other than refurb it to that standard is wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

I don't think a 1916 LSA would have had the volley sight. My 1916 Enfield and 1916 BSA MkIII don't, but they do have the cut off.

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To further confuse things or maybe not, my 1916 BSA MkIII does have the volley sights.

LSA sometimes seem to have been rather late in changing over to the 'latest pattern' of equipment; I have a LSA 1917 Mk3 (no volleys but cut off & windage rear sight) & a 1916 LSA complete with volleys. The rifles have not been mucked about with & are not later retro-conversions from Mk3*'s.

Never say never........!

ATB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

LSA sometimes seem to have been rather late in changing over to the 'latest pattern' of equipment; I have a LSA 1917 Mk3 (no volleys but cut off & windage rear sight) & a 1916 LSA complete with volleys. The rifles have not been mucked about with & are not later retro-conversions from Mk3*'s.

Never say never........!

ATB

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I've also heard of 1918 LSAs with the cut off and windage sight, I can only assume that perhaps LSA changed to Non volley sighted wood in 1916 then. I also have a BSA dated 1917 Mk3 with the cut off slot yet I've seen a 1916 BSA Mk3* with no slot. They must of had hundreds of bodies sat in various stages of the manufacturing process awaiting the next machine.

A lot of the ex-Italian Navy batch of SMLE's that are available at the moment are retro-converted Mk3*'s back to Mk3 configuration (cut off but no volleys; sometimes wind gauges). However, I'm presuming that what BP is referring to is rifles that were originally made as Mk3's. The ones issued to the Italian Navy were supposedly either from the RN or RCN & it is well known that the Navy did not like the absence of the cut off, retro converting many rifles after WW1. They are generally easy to recognise, often with the seriffed 'N' to the L side of the butt socket & the '*' of the mark designation officially barred through.

I know BSA started producing the Mk3* body before it was even officially sanctioned in the LoC & I have a 1915 dated example somewhere. But this, together with the fact that Mk3 rifles were being produced late in the war probably is indeed indicative that production lines changed over at different times & that existing stockpiles of otherwise good rifle bodies were not to be wasted.

ATB

I have an all original 1917 LSA with volley sights and cutoff but a non-windage back sight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

LSA sometimes seem to have been rather late in changing over to the 'latest pattern' of equipment; I have a LSA 1917 Mk3 (no volleys but cut off & windage rear sight) & a 1916 LSA complete with volleys. The rifles have not been mucked about with & are not later retro-conversions from Mk3*'s.

Never say never........!

ATB

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But a 1917 LSA MkIII (no volleys but cut off & windage rear sight) was the "latest pattern" for a MkIII in 1917

I was just referring to the fact that the Mk3 had progressed to the Mk3* officially in January 1916 (2nd, I think - speaking from memory here, but no doubt somebody can quote the LoC verbatim), so from then onwards the SMLE Mk3* was the latest current pattern service arm, yet newly manufactured Mk3 rifles are regularly encountered from after this date; some are post WW1 retro conversions, but not all.

I agree I just posted a few pictures a few weeks ago of my 1916 LSA and it also did not have the Vollley sight. Incidentally today I picked a number of 1916 C/|\ Headstamped Dominion Arms rounds today to go with my LSA. Makes those lonely stripper clips look perfect!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I was just referring to the fact that the Mk3 had progressed to the Mk3* officially in January 1916 (2nd, I think - speaking from memory here, but no doubt somebody can quote the LoC verbatim), so from then onwards the SMLE Mk3* was the latest current pattern service arm, yet newly manufactured Mk3 rifles are regularly encountered from after this date; some are post WW1 retro conversions, but not all.

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The Loc of 1916 introduced in part 1 changes to the future manufacture of the MkIII
Part 2 introduced the MkIII*

The MkIII* evolved from the MkIII not the MkIII evolved into the MkIII*
The omission of the Volley sights etc were all changes applied to the MkIII but as the MkIII* was the same as a MkIII (but with out the cutoff) the changes applied to it as well.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../01/ue2y-1.jpg

Thanks for the quote & the clarification. Perhaps then we should be surprised that there are not more late WW1 Mk3 rifles about?

And silly me, I thought this refurb was going to be simple. :)

Many thanks for all the info, folks. I will post progress reports. I likely will go for a volley sight, but as mentioned finding the correct forend may be difficult (within my financial capacity)

Lou

Why did LSA make No1 MkIII rifles throughout WWI?

I have seen pics of a '16 Lithgow with mag cut off and volley's but that does not mean Bubba crept in and had a go! As my '16 Lithgow has the cut off but no volley sights

Thanks Rob, I wasn't aware of the earlier thread. So when all is said & done we will probably never know for sure why a lot of these 'late Mk3's' are LSA rifles. Interestingly I just acquired some pre & early war volley sighted rifles from another UK dealer; the latest one is a 1916 LSA. All of the others are RSAF & BSA & date from 1912 to 1915 inclusive. They'd been used for firing blanks in the film & TV industry for decades, but the bores are scrubbing up nicely with a little patience.

ATB

There is something called a helicoil insert, but I suspect it wont be in "odd" threads.

BA, yes...

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That way I think you could use the original screw (assuming its BA)

The original screw is in a special "Enfield" thread size.

There is a table of thread sizes for the various LE rifles to be found if you do a search for "Lee Enfield thread sizes" - I think it is by one of the blokes from EFD rifles.

Tapping out to nearest BA size would at least give you reasonable access to taps, but you would have to then modify a BA screw to fit the cutoff pivot hole.

Don't remember the thread specs offhand, although I'm sure it's been in a post or two, probably concerning No.4 Trials rifles, as they aren't the same. At any rate here's a photo of an SMLE cutoff screw:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC01563-1.jpg
SMLE cutoff pivot screw

Versus:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SC015351-1.jpg
No.4 Mk.1 Enfield mfg.

The SMLE having a rather finer thread pitch.

Lou, if you do decide to & manage to salvage the hole with the original thread then I have a few spare cut-off screws. Just pm me if you want one.

ATB.