Wonky 03A4 Stock? Potential Forgery?

Does anyone else think that this rifle is a potential forgery? I think at least the stock is.

You can see what looks too be wood putty in front of the trigger guard to cover up old cartouches and the FJA stamp looks completely fake. Like someone sanded the stock and tried to make the markings pop out again so restamped the cartouches by hand.

Also, the serial number looks like it was potentially engraved. I know that the Z was added after the fact because there were some repeats in the serial number when the rifles where produced.

The seller states that it is "roughed stamped" as determined by a local expert.

Remington 03 A4 Sniper 03 A3 30-06 WWII rifle : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com


Jon

It does look like sanded wood putty on the stock, and the "K" stamp looks odd. The bolt handle also does not look right. The barrel is from a regular A3 rifle.

A "Bitser". A bit of this a bit of that. Spare parts gun, for sure. Not sure at all, but I half-think this is a converted Drill Rifle. Half-hearted thought, but a rifle to avoid.

The receiver markings have been applied with an engraving machine. It's a complete fabrication.

This is scary; I don't see much that looks right on this rifle. Although, SA did sometimes use filler to fill dings when rebuilding A4's.

I think Steve is right about it being a drill rifle; it looks to me like picture #24 shows a drop of weld on the receiver near the cut-off lever. The bolt handle is obviously altered to A4 configuration. Stock markings have been "improved"; the Keystone K should have serifs. Looks like someone stood too close to a polishing wheel while holding the receiver. The SN looks like it was done (or redone) with a pantograph. The scope base appears to be a Sarco reproduction; I'm guessing the seller doesn't know you should never remove the scope base, but, not being original, & not having shims, it probably doesn't matter.

Now, where did I leave my 10' pole?

Neal

I won't even pretend to know anything about m1903 snipers but I'm pretty sure that on the crossed cannon ordinance stamps the tips and bottoms of cannons are supposed to line up outside of wheel :) as the seller says, the pictures tell the story...

WOW, That is just the worst fake I've ever seen. You can see where the original markings were ground off on the receiver ring. It was ground down to the level of the area that the handgaurd ring nests. Salt Flat

What's scary is that its being sold with a reserve and at $1000 it hasn't been met. I am sure that someone will fall for it too and bid past the reserve. Sad.

Jon

This auction has been discussed at length on the CMP forum (twice yet!). It is the seller's second attempt to pass this item.
Note in the terms: "AS-IS No refunds of exchanges". Give this one a pass.

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Originally Posted by JGaynor

This auction has been discussed at length on the CMP forum (twice yet!). It is the seller's second attempt to pass this item.
Note in the terms: "AS-IS No refunds of exchanges". Give this one a pass.

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I am glad that with as little knowledge that I have about the 03A4 variant that I was able to pick up on it being a fake. All it takes is a little bit of reading.

Jon

Saved auction information and pics for posterity and future research. Number of pics required two threads ... :)

Regards,
Doug

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Remington 03 A4 Sniper 03 A3 30-06 WWII rifle : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com


Description for Item # 388691781


Up for auction is a Remington manufactured Springfield A4 Sniper (03-A3) in 30-06 caliber. This is an exceptional A4 for a serious collector. This A4 Sniper bolt action rifle comes with a Redfield WWII Type One base with 7/8" Type Two rings that hold an M82 Sniper rifle scope. The Flaming Bomb is shown in the pictures and this rifle is a 1943. This appears to be a correct WWII issue A4 Sniper but the pictures tell the story. We have field stripped this rifle and documented each piece and part with detailed photos for your review to determine actual condition and correctness. If you require further photos and/or have questions, contact us through messages and we will be happy to help you. We had a question about the serial stamp. We had local experts look at it, and it is the opinion that it is what is called "rough stamp" and not untypical of old military rifles. Shipping to Continental US for flat rate of $35.00. We accept Visa/Master Card and Discover (add 3% to total). We also accept Money Order and Certified Cashier's Check at no additional charge. We have many transactions and an A+ rating and we intend to keep it that way. Your satisfaction is our goal.

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Second post to show remainder of pics from previous post .. :)

Regards,
Doug

Up to $2751 and the reserve is still not met.... This is unbelievable.

Jon

felonious sale...nothing legal about this POS.

The threaded hole where the rear scope mount dovetail sits looks awfully new and shiney maybe I am just cynical having never been ripped off.................................

Why cannot the bidder be advised of such a rort or does that leave you open to litigation for possible slander surely there are enough qualified people out there to back the call with their trade or is it just to risky to attempt.....just asking guys as it looks as though someone is going for a fall....imagine going to the gun club to show all your mates feeling proud of a possible find just to be told you paid 4 times too much for it and not only is it a faker its a POS..........

We have a saying,, Buyer beware!! After the sale IF the buyer wants to he can go after the seller for fraud but add in Bloodsucker,, I mean lawyer fees, and where do you file fraud charges? His state or yours. Then you have to prove the seller was in fact trying to defraud you as opposed to just not knowing what he had. In all reality the buyer is going to eat the cost and at some point this rifle will be sold to another sucker. As for slander, no it's just not something we pursue in our culture except in very rare circumstances. The seller is a scumbag or a moron either way... Buyer beware!!

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Why cannot the bidder be advised of such a rort or does that leave you open to litigation for possible slander surely there are enough qualified people out there to back the call with their trade or is it just to risky to attempt.....just asking guys as it looks as though someone is going for a fall....imagine going to the gun club to show all your mates feeling proud of a possible find just to be told you paid 4 times too much for it and not only is it a faker its a POS..........

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I am not a member off Gunbroker but i don't think it's possible for outsiders to communicate directly with bidders. This wasn't always the case and there were reportedly quite a few abuses so bidders email addresses were partly obscured.

Sold!

Sold for $3300.... Heavy hit on the wallet for a fake.

Very little about this rifle is legit in my opinion. It is a complete and obvious POS. The bidders are unbelievably ignorant. I feel sad for them. I tried to sell a legit A4 and didn't get bids that high. Morons.

jt

I completely agree with everyone else on this really bad fraud.

While the seller may not know what they are selling, and its the responsibility of the buyer to know what they are buying its still a fraudulent gun.

I have advised Gunbroker.com that this gun is a fraud. I have asked them to make a note, and if other auctions this seller holds receives notice from the public about frauds, then they will know what kind of seller they are dealing with! (And the seller is listed as an FFL :ugh:)

I feel a little like a busy-body for butting in at Gunbroker.com, and I doubt it will help, but I have been defrauded on Gunbroker.com, not that this bad, but still defrauded. Just trying to help I suppose.
My .02
Tom

No way to contact the buyer? Sad day for that guy.

The buyer's name won't be revealed until the he/she leaves feedback on the item. (if they even do that) Doesn't matter, item says sold as is with no returns and no inspection period. Buyer is SOL.

Jon

Illegal to possess with the altered serial number.

Well there is an avenue if they have altered the serial and its illegal to own then they have committed a wrong by selling an altered weapon therefore perhaps the Police should get involved and we will see how the "No return policy " works for the seller in a court of law??

$3,300 for a suspected fake. :(

Well, the fellas with the bulges in the cheap suits have shown no interest in pursuing legal action with regard to USGI milsurps, unless the gun in question is determined to be a "crime gun", or the US Attorney needs an easy case to prove against someone he's trying to put away. They know that the US military sometimes restamped serial numbers when they were partially or completely removed during refinishing. Of course, those of us on this forum know enough to recognize the work of a "humper", but juries are easily put to sleep by little details.

Neal

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

We have a saying,, Buyer beware!! After the sale IF the buyer wants to he can go after the seller for fraud but add in Bloodsucker,, I mean lawyer fees, and where do you file fraud charges? His state or yours. Then you have to prove the seller was in fact trying to defraud you as opposed to just not knowing what he had. In all reality the buyer is going to eat the cost and at some point this rifle will be sold to another sucker. As for slander, no it's just not something we pursue in our culture except in very rare circumstances. The seller is a scumbag or a moron either way... Buyer beware!!

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Not all lawyers are blood suckers...many provide good service for a fair price.

You didn't meet my ex wife's divorce lawyer!!! I swear to the all mighty she had horns on her head and when she smiled I saw FANGS.!!
Kept my firearms and the dog though....:)

Whether the law has any interest in the illegal gun is not the problem. It is still illegal to possess so why would you want it, and like going 40 in a 35 MPH zone, you probably won't get stopped, but if the police want to they can.

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any fire- arm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

But who's to say it's illegal.? The fact of the matter is there is no way for a government agent to run THAT s/n and be able to determine THAT rifles s/n has been altered.
I could strike the s/n on any Milsurp I own and replace the s/n, who's going to prove A, I did it, B, that's not the actual s/n?

I'd be more worried if said rifle had no s/n but again unless it's used in a crime, in the US anyway, nobody is going to look.

Has anyone on the forum declared it authentic and original? It goes back to one question. Why would anyone want to own a fake, especially at an original price?

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Originally Posted by Johnny Peppers

Has anyone on the forum declared it authentic and original? It goes back to one question. Why would anyone want to own a fake, especially at an original price?

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https://www.milsurps.com/images/advi...wed_medium.png

Well, I'm not an expert in 1903's, by any stretch of the imagination ... :lol:

Having said that and reviewing contributors to this thread, it appears that several members of our Advisory Panel who are highly knowledgeable on this genre, have reviewed the auction and what's been presented in its pics, concluding it's their opinion that the piece is not authentic. I didn't see any of that group supporting a claim that it's original and authentic.

So, the question that should be asked is, did the buyer avail himself of the huge amount of Internet research and serious 1903 collectors opinions, before he spent that much in his "bid to win" efforts for that auction?

I can't speak for him, but if I was a 1903 collector, personally I would have checked with a number of sites to obtain feedback, as well as did some basic homework on whatever publications I could find about 1903's, before going down that rabbit hole. ;) If he did, where and to whom did he speak with that got him so lathered up, that he had to have the piece?

Further, how do you think he's going to feel if he came here and read this thread, after sending his money and receiving the item? :red face:

Just my two cents .. :beerchug:

Regards,
Doug

Now that's a stamp!!
Please don't get me wrong I'm with you Johnny, it's fake and has been altered,, my one yr old can see that. I'm just beating the dead horse that there ain't much for the buyer to do NOW.

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

Now that's a stamp!!

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Part of a new site program under development .. ;)

Regards,
Doug

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

You didn't meet my ex wife's divorce lawyer!!! I swear to the all mighty she had horns on her head and when she smiled I saw FANGS.!!
Kept my firearms and the dog though....:)

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As I say not all lawyers are bloodsuckers...sounds like you got a good deal anyway!

Marriage is grand, Divorce is $100 grand. Plus child support, medical insurance, etc.
Some day, I may be out of that debt, but I know better...
But, I love my kids and grand kids!

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

But who's to say it's illegal.? The fact of the matter is there is no way for a government agent to run THAT s/n and be able to determine THAT rifles s/n has been altered.
I could strike the s/n on any Milsurp I own and replace the s/n, who's going to prove A, I did it, B, that's not the actual s/n?

I'd be more worried if said rifle had no s/n but again unless it's used in a crime, in the US anyway, nobody is going to look.

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Serial numbers in this case are totally irrelevant. The fact that the rifles original serial number has been ground off is where the violation lies. A simple inspection of the rifle (in this case) is enough to charge them. And yes, there are a couple ways to recover the original serial number that had been ground off too, these processes have been around for years.

Charging someone and proving BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT he did it are two separate issues. In the context of this conversation, What government agency is going to spend their limited resources to investigate a fake Military surplus O3A4 sold for $3300 on the internet that hasn't been involved in a crime? So now BATFE is a verifier of collectible military surplus rifles? Let the buyer complain to BATFE,,,he'll be out $3300 and a rifle if they even care. Here's an example,, I buy a Mosin Nagant. The rifle has a partially ground s/n, a struck s/n and a third intact s/n. I think it's "fake" and want my money back...

The bottom line here is the buyer did not take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and do due diligence before the purchase.

WarPig, I agree,, partially, yes the buyer should study up on what they're chasing. But weather or not PP&G did the work themselves or not, that doesn't need to be proven, they had an illegal gun, (yep, I'm sure they got stuck with it) they sold it AND THEY KNEW ABOUT IT. They did recieve several correspondences about it through GB during thier first posting and even acknowledge it in thier second description (although mildly). BATF doesn't investigate authenticity, they investigate violations of federal law, this looks like one of those to me! I understand your position on the matter, but there a few details that you're not aware of. This rifle has been featured on just about every major firearms forum there is.

Here, this might help explain, with emphasis on (b) altering identity:
§ 14-160.2. Alteration, destruction, or removal of serial number from firearm; possession
of firearm with serial number removed.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to alter, deface, destroy, or remove the
permanent serial number, manufacturer's identification plate, or other permanent distinguishing
number or identification mark from any firearm with the intent thereby to conceal or
misrepresent the identity of the firearm.
(b) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to sell, buy, or be in possession of any
firearm on which the permanent serial number, manufacturer's identification plate, or other
permanent distinguishing number or identification mark has been altered, defaced, destroyed,
or removed for the purpose of concealing or misrepresenting the identity of the firearm.
(c) A violation of any of the provisions of this section shall be a Class H felony.

It's a shame nobody reported PP&G to the BATFE before hand,, could've saved the buyer $3300 I suppose but then again it's more fun to discuss the legality afterward.

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Originally Posted by Crashyoung

Marriage is grand, Divorce is $100 grand. Plus child support, medical insurance, etc.
Some day, I may be out of that debt, but I know better...
But, I love my kids and grand kids!

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One of my favorite jokes is "why is divorse so ex*****ve"? "because it is worth it".

of

Final assessment ....

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This item has been judged by members of the Milsurps Advisory Panel as NOT completely authentic, possibly has been rebuilt, or put together with correct/incorrect markings or substituted parts.

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What is the Advisory Panel Review Validation Service?