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I just bought a Jungle Carbine bayonet and it has a scabbard I haven't seen before. The scabbard looks like a shrunk down 1907 scabbard with the metal ends and its made of leather. Has anyone heard of this before? is it a rarity? I tried google searching and for the life of me cannot find anything like this one.
Thanks,
Eric
Those were usually on the later models like the #7 or #9 bayonets as I've seen. I've seen those scabbards cut down to fit everything from the short blades to longer 1907s as made for Africa and India...
Also have one on a No7. Don't know if they were used from new or someone robbed the scabbards. I suppose I should get "British and Commonwealth Bayonets" off the shelf and look!
When the L1A1 rifles were issued the old No4 rifles/bayonets were withdrawn and the scabbards retained by the unit for the new L1A1 bayonets on a one-for-one basis. As a result, zillions of the old No7 and 9 bayonets were disposed of without scabbards. So a cut down long scabbard was a make do and mend effort.
The same applied to the grenade launchers. Old ones were returned and the leather cases retained for the new-issue L1A1 rifle grenade launcher. Hence the rarity of the leather cases now
I'm very glad to hear that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The irony to the grenade launcher pouch thing was that when the 'new' 58 pattern webbing came on stream - from about 1963/4 onwards, the right pouch contained a built-in pocket for the grenade launcher. So the leather pouches that everyone made a song and dance about keeping for the 'new' L1A1 rifle grenade launcher went by the wayside.
One of the very old and wise QM's who taught me about all the insides-out of the Quartermaster system, much to my advantage, told me that he was sat on piles of these pouches that he'd been advised to back-load to Ordnance RSSD. They weree useless for anything else so he ended up using them as fuel for the QM's boiler!
One day, now that Alan has passed away, I'll tell of the old Bedford RL Machinery lorry
We had scads of the #7 and #9 bayonets come into Canada about 30 years ago and some of the African and Indian short 1907 blades...they all had scabbards made from 1907 scabbards and many were just like new. I had a very short 1907 that was cut and re-marked a few times and ended up with an 8" blade, it had a VERY short scabbard and it was perfect. I'm thinking these were a professional item considering we all know how hard it is to re-do the staples in one of those...
well here are some pictures. I picked it up cheap and couldn't be happier with it. My No5 is complete again
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...db63e4d1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c6d89cc0-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a3c5a4f8-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2301fc3a-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d272f4a5-1.jpg
Typical Indian modified No1 rifle bayonet scabbard. Scabbard made in Oz too! Maybe India kept its steel scabbards back for the new L1A1 type bayonets too. They don't waste much..........
BAR, the staple mandrill ( I think it was called a 'lacing tool') was a two part thing. Sorry if you know all this. The lower/long mandrill was pushed into the scabbard and the lower tip was put on first and the staple (lace?) put in the holes. The staple thing was punched inwards using a mallet to hit a shaped former. This drove the staple in and the inner shape of the mandrill spread the legs outwards. A similar mandrill thinggy was used to do the top laces but was shaped differently. I think someone showed us an Aust version of the mandrill once......
There was one of these tool sets in the QM's stores at the old Knook Camp when the Demonstration Battalion moved from there to the new Barracks at Battlesbury. My old boss, Wilf Attrill told me what it was. There were also a load of old BOYS a/t rifle spares too that only he could identify
I've never had the whole explanation, just my imagination on how it would be done. We also discussed it here some time ago. Before that, I thought the legs were spread inwards like a staple. I saw the tool pictured here. So, they were done by India? That makes sense because the whole shipment of blades came in together from Century Arms(I think) way back then and they would have bought them about the time India sold off a mass of rifles, FNs, #1s, #4s...odds and sods...Warren might remember...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
It's an Owen SMG bayonet scabbard.
I believe that. But I also saw them in intermediate lengths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
How the steel scabbards were produced.
While I was preparing the bayonet for the 'THE ANATOMY OF A BAYONET' display at Warminster I found a few other odds and sods in the box of bits that'd come from Enfield. There were a few stages in the manufacture of the steel scabbards. They started as a thin walled tube, cut to approx 8.5" length and then the last 2.5" or so was rolled between a series of rollers down to a quite severe taper, tapering down to a dia of about .3". This round tapered tube was then passed or squeezed between parallel rollers to form the classic shape. It looked like a shaped former was pressed into the mouthpiece to give it a correct size for the mouthpiece and spring and then the frog button brazed on at the same time as the tip. From then on, just the usual phosphate and paint. No doubt the outside contractors had their own different methods
Anyway, just another bit of useless Enfield related stuff...........
Quite interesting from my old engineering point of view
That's because Oz made a bunch of different length bayonets for the No.6 Series (and Owen).Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Somewhere here I have a new, unused edition of one of the short scabbards, but sadly, no bayonet.
Bayonets for the Oz No.6 are readily identifiable by having a large ring to fit the conical, No5 style flash "hider", BUT the sword-bar slot of a standard Patt. '07 (as opposed to the "round" hole for the No5 sword bar.) They also have standard '07 wooden grip panels. There are a FEW "full length" '07s floating around that have been fitted with a new quillon that fits the large No6 flash hider diameter.
"Proper" Owen bayonets are also bog standard '07 from pommel to quillon. Early models have a blade that is simply remodeled from a "full" '07 and the fullers run through to the tip. Later variants are a little more "refined".
"Owen Gun" bayonets are also closely related to the various "experimental" blades produced for the equally experimental Australian "shortened and lightened" carbine. This bayonet, of course, has a standard SMLE nosecap and thus, bayonet mounting.
This, naturally, leads into the wonderful "machete" bayonet, or "Bayonet, Parachutist" as it is correctly described. (See drawing No. ADD (S) 23.100 (SHF)). And if you think authentic scabbards for the "shortened" Oz '07s are a challenge, try finding an ORIGINAL reinforced canvas job for the "Parachutist" model.
Attachment 49122
An Australian made scabbard for sure (OA) but shortened further I think.
I had two Owen bayonets, one cut down and one original. I had the scabbards for both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
Is there any way of identifyiung a real factory Owen bayonet as in bayonet 3 above as opposed to something similar but cut down at home by a budding forger. Apart from the obvious fuller of course?
It was marked by OA as well and had all the proof marks...
I've only encountered the shortened scabbards on No.7Mk.1 bayonets I've picked up over the years. The scabbards appear "factory made" and are for the 8" blade. They may have been assembled by U.S. importers back in the day. A barrel of No.9 and No.7 bayonets and a barrel full of scabbards that fit!! Put them together and "Bob's your Uncle". As mentioned above, the No.5Mk.1 scabbards were retained when the older bayonets were sold off. Even long after the L1A1 became obsolete, the metal scabbards still remain hard to find to this day.