Vetterli 6.5 Carcano

I picked up a Vetterli Carcano at auction yesterday which all in all isn't in bad shape except for having very little finish left on the barrel and action. The bore looks pretty nice although I haven't run anything through it yet. Exterior was pretty much rust free but some light orange rust in the barrel channel which came right off. Barrel is very slightly pitted on the bottom. Action works smooth. I have not taken the bolt out yet to examine it for cracks.

It has a couple of issues. I need a front barrel band a cleaning rod and a sling. I also need to repair the front sight which is missing the left half of the support and the blade itself. I expect I am going to have to make both of these items myself which isn't the problem. The problem is how do I fasten them. They are brazed on by the looks of things as I can see the remains of that where the left side is missing. In that the barrel sleeve is soldiered in on these I would assume it's not wise to heat things up too much. So what recommendations can you make for installing a new front sight?

The sling isn't a high priority, I have one that looks like those that I've seen in various photos. If anyone has a spare front barrel band or cleaning rod or knows someone who does, please let me know. I searched the various gun parts companies with no luck. I'll post some photos when I get a chance to take some.

Could you post a couple photo's of the damaged area?

Hey, I have one also.... that is probably 100% correct (no sling and I don't know about the cleaning rod) and complete. If you need photos, let me know. Otherwise I don't want to JUMP YOUR THREAD.
And I agree, I would like to see photos of yours!! :)

I'll try to get some posted before the Superbowl. At this moment, it's disassembled for cleaning. Hope to finish that up shortly.

I was wondering if it takes the standard 1891 Carcano cleaning rod. That would make sense unless the barrels are two different lengths.

Found another problem. Someone cut the firing pin making it inoperable. Not sure if this was done just to do it or if there is some other issue with the rifle. I can visually see no problems with it and it has a near new bore. I have not tried putting a case into it but read somewhere that if you can see the brass, it's stretched. Will try that later.

The converted vetterlis are cool guns:thup:. I have one that was brought home by a family member from the first world war. It came with the cleaning rod broken so I sourced out another one from a similar rifle I had bought prior to receiving this one. I ended up selling the other converted vetterli and used the money towards a French gras rifle. I lucked into a sling and bayonet for it. Mine is a display gun but I know of some who do shoot these with underpowered 6.5 loads.

Here are a few photos after cleaning.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...psb5b6f802.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps9504484c.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...pse12a9085.jpg

Here is the front sight area:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps49921a75.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps235fcdc0.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps07e200a5.jpg

And here is a shot of the bolt closed on a casing. You can see brass but I don't see how you possibly couldn't as the extractor will not allow it to go any far forward than that. Bolt closed tight but it was a fired case so not unexpected. Didn't try an unfired case.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps840e44a2.jpg

Having taken it apart, it seems very thin on the receiver walls in the magazine well area. I can't say I'm real inclined to fire this one but it would be nice to know if I could if I so desired. Is the brass showing an issue or something someone said that knows nothing about it?

The missing piece from the FS base looks to me like an old repair attempt that didn't hold up. I believe the base is dovetailed into the barrel and soldered in place like those found on Trapdoors and Krags as I see what looks like a seam in the third photo from the bottom.
If this is the case the best and strongest repair option would be to fab a whole new base. Second and probably the easiest option would be to fab a new section and attach with a low temp soft solder like 50/50 or 60/40 that has a melting point of 361 degrees F. The biggest down side to option 2 is it won't be overly strong with such a small joint but should hold up ok for occasional shooting and display purposes.

The base isn't dovetailed it's brazed. There are a lot of brazed parts on this, the bayonet lug, the rear "slide" which the bolt rides in, rear sight. There does seem to be a slight indentation for the blade. It looks like a three piece unit and the left base and the blade are missing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

I see what looks like a seam in the third photo from the bottom.

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I'm inclined to agree. A three piece base doesn't make much sense, but it could have been a repair. Lots of meat under the sight. fabricating a new block and cutting a dovetail would be my choice of repair. It can be done with a hacksaw, files and lots of time if a mill isn't available.

Looking at it closer, it does look like it has been repaired but I still see no evidence of a dove tail. The piece that remains has a small pin going through it which would have held the blade in place. These were fixed sights and could not be moved which a dove tail would have allowed.

What do you guys think about the brass showing? Is that a sign the receiver is stretched or is it normal for these?

Can a new tip be welded onto the firing pin like I've read recommended for other types? Looks like nearly a half inch was cut off.

And I discovered a curiosity about my bolt. It has resonance like a tuning fork. When I pulled the handle off, it started ringing and kept doing it for over a minute.

I have all ideas the firing pin can be fixed by adding on a new section but I'd like to see a photo of it if you don't mind.

The first three photos are not my rifle but one I found on the net. They show what the sight and front band that I'm missing are supposed to look like.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...psb2f9cf6b.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps23c60805.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps3016505f.jpg

These next photos are of my firing pin. It looks to have been cut off with a small cutting wheel and is in my estimation a quarter inch to 3/8th's inch too short now.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...psab30596e.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps753912db.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...psc0efdffe.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Midmichigun

Hey, I have one also.... that is probably 100% correct (no sling and I don't know about the cleaning rod) and complete. If you need photos, let me know. Otherwise I don't want to JUMP YOUR THREAD.
And I agree, I would like to see photos of yours!! :)

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If you could take a photo with the bolt closed on a cartridge, that would be helpful. I don't know how you wouldn't be able to see it looking at mine but it could be stretched or something. The bore is one of the best milsurp bores I have so it wasn't shot much or if it was, it was well maintained.

On a side note, I was reading this morning that both Italy and Germany have proof tested these rifles with 20% over cartridges and they passed. Obviously word of mouth with no evidence to support it.

Aragorn,
I will look into taking a photo. No problem. Look for photos over the weekend.

I was STRONGLY cautioned against firing my rifle. The comments were based on the soldering job of the 6.5mm barrel liner into the original bore and 100 years of corrosion. It was also mentioned that the MASSIVE bolt isn't as strong as "we think".

I believe the clipping of the firing pin, is based on the above feelings on the safety of the rifle. I have often heard of folks clipping (many just weld the bolt face) FP's to render a rifle useless.

On occasion I have looked for bayonets. They seem to be hard to find, and rather expensive.

I do have 20 odd rounds of Carcano ammo and have debated on shooting mine.

My bayonet just arrived today. It cost me slightly more than the rifle. They had been coming up on ebay but were going for too much in my opinion. I found mine on a antique dealer's site, made him an offer and got it today. It is rather odd looking sitting sideways on the rifle.

The bolt looks plenty strong, it's the thin walled receiver I'm more concerned with. I've read just about everything I can find on them and general consensus is they are fine to shoot with reduced handloads. The outside finish on mine is worn but the bore looks like it was never fired. Interior is rust free as well, plenty of cosmoline left in it.

There is a you-tube video of a guy shooting one, rather humorous in a manner of speaking but he seems nuts at the same time. He safely fired 6 rounds of full fledged surplus ammo through his with no ill effects. I don't feel that daring but reduced loads would be something fun to do.

Would not shoot this thing. Old blackpowder rifle and not strong at all. A nice keeper, but not a nice shooter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

The bolt looks plenty strong..............

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Looks can be deceiving. Have you checked out the locking lugs?

:madsmile:

There are none, it relies on only the bolt handle if I recall correctly. Okay for black powder, original caliber pressures, but weak for a modern cartridge. And yes, the 6.5 Carcano is a relatively high power modern cartridge. All of the above being said, I have been tempted but only with downloads.

Another problem that many experienced shooters worry about is the lined barrels. Personally, that worries me far less than the strength of the bolt. The barrel liner is an Italian development that has been used by others, Finland comes to mind, not to mention civilian shooters all over the world. The work was well done and I have never seen any examples where corrosion between the liner and the barrel could cause problems. But, on a large scale of production as done to convert these guns, mistakes can happen and they were not considered a heavy use solution to the problem of a war-time arms shortage, that's why very few if any show wear to their bores, they were on issue to rear echelon troops and only rarely fired, almost never in anger.

Locking lugs pass a visual inspection. I have not applied any liquid to check for hairline cracks. The lugs are on the bolt handle, the bolt itself has its own large lug that completely surrounds it and prevents it from going through the handle.

I'm really not planning to fire this with full loads so no worries there. From what I've read which by now is nearly every article and disucssion on the web, most of these bores are in pretty bad shape. They saw extensive use in WWI and in WWII in Ethiopia using full military loads and weren't maintained properly. They are most definately a war expedient but were not intended to kill the shooter.

Failures have occurred, not full catastrophic failures but failures none the less. What is the big unknown is while safe when developed, how much stretching, compression, weakening, occurred with each shot fired and how many shots were fired through it.

"They saw extensive use in WWI and in WWII" you sure about that? They were rear guard guns: drivers, cooks, etc., guns not intended to be used. Not intended for front line units or troops at all. Not sure they saw any WWII use, just not sure, mind you. Handload and very light handloads at that. Good luck with this one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

"They saw extensive use in WWI and in WWII" you sure about that? They were rear guard guns: drivers, cooks, etc., guns not intended to be used. Not intended for front line units or troops at all. Not sure they saw any WWII use, just not sure, mind you. Handload and very light handloads at that. Good luck with this one.

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Yes I'm sure. They saw extensive use in both wars. The Italian front was pretty flexible in that front lines were over run on many occasions and these rifles were used by the rear eschelon troops they were issued to. They were credited with the killing of an Austiran General and the shooting down of a blimp. In WWII they were used by the Ethiopian troops in Italian service. Quite a bit of history on them if you look. There are write ups about them in several gun magazines denoting their use and history. They used full standard 6.5 carcano ammo as issued during their entire Italian service and in present day Italy and Germany have been proof tested to these standards and passed. No one really recommends that however and hand loads with cast bullets are the standard today. They converted 500,000 of them along with a number of carbines which were issued to cavalry units.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

"They saw extensive use in WWI and in WWII" you sure about that? They were rear guard guns: drivers, cooks, etc., guns not intended to be used. Not intended for front line units or troops at all. Not sure they saw any WWII use, just not sure, mind you. Handload and very light handloads at that. Good luck with this one.

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I have to agree with Calif-Steve, they saw no use by front line troops in either war though they were used by colonial troops outside of main battle regions in the 1914 - 1918 War. I have never seen one with a bad bore but have only seen about 50 or 60 over the years. Mine has a near perfect bore while the exterior shows heavy wear to the metal and wood finish.

I never said they saw front line use in either war, they were never issued to front line troops. That does not mean they did not see action. They saw extensive action against Austria in WWI. Secondary troops were not all that sheltered in the Italian theater in WWI. They saw extensive action in Ethiopia in WWII as they were the primary weapon of issue of the colonial troops. They were used. They were fired, They did not blow up. Mine also has a near perfect bore and a very worn exterior. Nearly all listed on Gunbroker in recent listings have had very poor bores and that is what I base my findings on. That you personally examined 50 or 60 of these is impressive although I must admit to having doubts they all had good bores based on current sale listings.

Reviews by the two gun magazines which I read stated nearly all are shot out to various degrees. Various reviews on You-tube etc also make note of the difficulty of finding one with a pristine bore although they say many are in shooting condition with light loads.

No one recommends shooting them with full loads and I'm not recommending that either., but history has shown they stood up well to the pressures of the military loading.

Aragorn,

Glad to hear that you got a bayonet for it. That is one accessory that I am looking for in piles of bayonets at Gunshows. You never know when you will run across one.

I agree that this rifle did see service in WWI. Some of my research indicates that although it was a "second line or cooks weapon", times were desperate, and quite a few saw action. But I am NOT saying by any means that it was a desired rifle or something that was highly respected.

As a side FYI, I do know that some gents have taken the Nepal Martini's that they purchased from IMA, and recalibered them to something less powerful, but more common (IIRC some were converted to .303Brit about 100yrs ago).

As both (Martini's and the Vetterli) were from the black powder era, and therefore might NOT be up to the job for running full power rifle loads. I suppose this could also be done to this type of gun. Some of the popular conversions for the Martini's have been 45LC (long colt).

I also agree with running low pressure rounds if you do wish to fire it in 6.5mm.

As such, I try and leave tags on any of my rifles that I have doubts or concerns about safety (especially if I haven't gotten around to repairing them yet). Hence why many folks do finally just clip the FP's or weld the bolt faces... therefore the intent is clear.

Looking on my tag, mine is an 1890 Terni. I also paid around $155.00 for it. IIRC, the barrel is almost mirror like!!

I did find the rifle in question, and will take photos. I also got out my Carcano ammunition, and will show you what a chambered round looks like. I "goobered" it up good with grease, so will need to clean it before I snap photos or chamber a round.

I am told that they are worth a bit more money, if you can find them in the original 11mm configuration.

I have located and acquired a welded barrel that I can cut the front sight off of when it arrives. Any recommendations for how to go about this repair/replacement. If I could manage to cut it off the old barrel with a dovetail attached, I could install it with a dovetail but then that wouldn't exactly be proper and I don't think I could successfully pull it off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Midmichigun

Aragorn,

I am told that they are worth a bit more money, if you can find them in the original 11mm configuration.

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I've heard that too but then I wouldn't be interested in it. Not WWI which is my self imposed cut off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I've heard that too but then I wouldn't be interested in it. Not WWI which is my self imposed cut off.

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Ah, but like your M70/87/15, they were issued to Italian rear echelon troops during WW1. The Italians also issued the Vitali magazine fed M70/87 as well. They also sent a number of Vetterlis - single shot and Vetterli-Vitali - in the original caliber as aid to Imperial Russian forces for use on the Eastern Front. So all of the versions of the Vetterli were WW1 issued.

But of course, you are right, there has to be a cut off somewhere or :banghead:

For an excellent, short but detailed article by one of todays top collectors of WW1 firearms, equipment and uniforms see John Sheehan's article from his series of articles for Guns Magazine at:

Web Blast: Italian Shoulder Arms Of WWII | Guns Magazine

John's collection and knowledge about WW1 details are to die for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gew8805

Ah, but like your M70/87/15, they were issued to Italian rear echelon troops during WW1. The Italians also issued the Vitali magazine fed M70/87 as well. They also sent a number of Vetterlis - single shot and Vetterli-Vitali - in the original caliber as aid to Imperial Russian forces for use on the Eastern Front. So all of the versions of the Vetterli were WW1 issued. .

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Shhhhhhhhhhhhh, I read that also but have been ignoring it. I started out with a representative example, you know, the basic weapon most commonly found. That evolved into multiple variations of said primary weapon, and then more obscure secondary weapons. I then developed "The List" and this was designed to keep me from buying anything but what is on the list but the list got frustrating and the bargains started being available and "The List" while still there has been ignored repeatedly. This Vetterli broke all the rules as I did not know much about it when I purchased it and I KNEW it was obsolete by WWI. It was priced right. At least my Chinese 88 is on my list, sort of, I have the Chiang Kai-shek rifle on there but this is an adequate substitute and I'll probably drop the other one.

I have acquired another barrel that was rendered useless by having the breech welded shut. It probably won't get here for at least a week but I'm going to cut off the sight and install it on this one. I'm concerned about heating it to braze it into place so I'm leaning toward some sort of glue. It will have a fairly large mating surface so it should stick but what would you recommend using? I'm concerned about heating due to the barrel liner being soldiered in place.

JB weld, sold at auto parts stores and home centers.

Before you go to cutting at it take a little time to find out just how it was originally attached. Chances are good that it'll either be a hidden non adjustable dovetail or it's a saddle type soldered straight to the barrel. Either way a little heat will reveal which one it is. I understand your concerns about reattaching it to the good barrel with the soldered sleeve but it is possible.
JB Weld and most other hardware store epoxies are way over rated for joining metals. The expansion/contraction properties aren't even close and the slightest bump will break it right back off.
My suggestion is, once it's determined just how it was initially secured is to use a low temp soft solder and a heat sink of some sort to reattach it. If it does turn out to be dovetailed it's possible it could be staked in place good enough and no heat would be needed at all.
Any good radiator shop worth their salt will know just how to fix it if it needs soldering on.

Agreed, JB weld would be good for wall hanger purposes shooting is a different story.

I'd prefer doing it right. I guess I'll wait and see until the barrel gets here and try heat to get it off, I can't really hurt that barrel. If I can successfully get it off with heat I may cut the barrel in half underneath to see what effects the removal had on the barrel sleeve joint. I'm 95% sure this is not dovetailed on these barrels.

Anyone have a cleaning rod they can measure for me. I need length, thickness and screw size. A photo of the tip would be nice too. Looks like I'll have to make one of these. I have a source for rod material. A Turk Mauser rod will not fit in the channel, a Swedish Mauser rod will but wouldn't screw into the socket. Both are way too short. I'm probably going to have to make a cleaning rod for my new Type 88 Hanyang rifle too. These have brass end caps.

Is there any other rifle's barrel band that would fit this? Probably not but I figured I'd ask.

I wanted to let you guys know you were right. The front sights are dovetailed to the barrel. They are also soldiered in place. I tried heating it with a little torch which had no effect. I then tried heating it with a larger torch with no effect. I decided to cut the barrel right behind it and then try heating again. No affect. But in filing it down to get it smooth a faint joint appeared showing the dove tail. Still can't see it on the original barrel.

So I hack sawed the sight off the barrel and smoothed it down with files. Now the hard part of digging out the dovetail on the good barrel.

The torches I used had no effect on the interior barrel soldier that I can tell. I can see the seam where I cut it in half but it isn't eroded out at all nor did it melt out the end of the barrel which is only an inch or so from the sight. Interior barrel sleeve is about 1/8 th inch thick.

Aragorn, I've used hard solder (silver brazing wire) to replace front sights on Krag rfles. They had a small dovetailed area that was really hard to see also. Silver brazing was the original method and is the strongest solution. The key to success is having a clean joint and the right flux. You can get enough heat from a propane torch. If you do this directly on the barrel (like a Krag) you must pack the last 3 inches of the bore with a paste made from bone black and water. This will pevent heat scale in the bore (old old gunsmithing trick). Sounds tricky but really isn't too hard. Most old gunsmithing books describe the process. You can buy the wire at ACE hardware but it is quite expensive ($20 ?) . The wire is very thin (nothing like brazing rod and melts at a much lower temp). I will try to find the exact brand name if I can. If your worried about other possible soldered areas, wrap them with wet rags. I would do a trial run on the scrap barrel shroud first and keep fire extinguisher at hand!!! Salt Flat

I have some solder already from attaching a 1917 front sight. My torch didn't affect the liner so no worries there. I'm going to try heating the old sight and driving it out but not too hopeful after my previous attempts on the old barrel. Probably going to have to cut and file out the remains of the old sight.

Front sight is fixed. Had some worries using hand files but solder hides everything. Now if I can just find a front barrel band.

Here's my repair job. I'm happy with it. I just have some cheap hand files and I filed the old dovetail out, cut the other sight off the old barrel and filed it down to fit.

Before:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps49921a75.jpg

After:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps896e9834.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps08ce73e5.jpg

Very much nicer!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Midmichigun

Aragorn,

Glad to hear that you got a bayonet for it. That is one accessory that I am looking for in piles of bayonets at Gunshows. You never know when you will run across one.

I agree that this rifle did see service in WWI. Some of my research indicates that although it was a "second line or cooks weapon", times were desperate, and quite a few saw action. But I am NOT saying by any means that it was a desired rifle or something that was highly respected.

As a side FYI, I do know that some gents have taken the Nepal Martini's that they purchased from IMA, and recalibered them to something less powerful, but more common (IIRC some were converted to .303Brit about 100yrs ago).

As both (Martini's and the Vetterli) were from the black powder era, and therefore might NOT be up to the job for running full power rifle loads. I suppose this could also be done to this type of gun. Some of the popular conversions for the Martini's have been 45LC (long colt).

I also agree with running low pressure rounds if you do wish to fire it in 6.5mm.

As such, I try and leave tags on any of my rifles that I have doubts or concerns about safety (especially if I haven't gotten around to repairing them yet). Hence why many folks do finally just clip the FP's or weld the bolt faces... therefore the intent is clear.

Looking on my tag, mine is an 1890 Terni. I also paid around $155.00 for it. IIRC, the barrel is almost mirror like!!

I did find the rifle in question, and will take photos. I also got out my Carcano ammunition, and will show you what a chambered round looks like. I "goobered" it up good with grease, so will need to clean it before I snap photos or chamber a round.

I am told that they are worth a bit more money, if you can find them in the original 11mm configuration.

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Back in the early 70's I paid the magnificant sum of $16.95 for mine - from the Shotgun News. :rofl:

It's been over a year and a half on this project but today I was at the auction from hell and they had a Vetterli with the cleaning rod. They also had a nice one in the original caliber that I hoped to get but decided I didn't need it that bad when it started pushing $400. I hadn't even looked at the Carcano other than seeing the cleaning rod. Told my wife I'd go $50 on it for the rod and got it for $40. Looked at it after the win and thought it looked nicer than the one I have and when I got it home, it is. So this one is going to replace the other in my collection. Weird how things work out. Probably helped that the flyer from the auction house said "Do not fire this rifle under any condition, even using original surplus ammo" I'm sure that scared everyone else off.

Cleaned the rifle up and checked it out. It was complete with the exception of a small screw in the nose piece. It is going to replace the one I started with. Oddly enough there are differences in these two rifles. The magazine in particular is shaped differently. Bolt is numbered unlike the other and it does match.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...psy2vixnb4.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...psfb0zpcwy.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps3vvi25kg.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...psde1w81x7.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...psdjyikkd3.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...psconf5fyx.jpg

Very nice, this conversion I have always found interesting.

Do you shoot these rifles? I know most people say not to, but I imagine there are people that have.

I have never shot the first one. It had a clipped firing pin that it took me a year to locate and replace. I am tempted to put the old one in a lead sled and fire it but even that isn't a good indicator. They were "safe", it is just a matter of safe for how many shots. I may make some reduced loads for them at some point but as I'm not a heavy shooter, it's not real high on my priority list. This second one has been fired, it has some fouling in the bore. No rust but fouling.