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Hello everyone. This is a rifle I have wanted for quite some time but I kind of gave up looking for one in the pursuit of other rifles. Anyway, these are some pics from the seller. I am very excited to receive it. It has a Finnish "D" stamp on it, but what is the deal with the X'ed out number and the "S"? Thanks for any info.
Attachment 49612Attachment 49613Attachment 49614
I read somewhere that the "X" sometimes signified Russian captured (or in this case re-captured?) firearms. I'm not sure about it in this case, though. Do some searching for Russian re-captures and see if you can find anything that fits...
Great rifle, BTW! Very, very nice.
Well, it seems most likely the "S" is for the Finnish Civil guard. This is a very common and documented mark and it looks very much like the "S" on this rifle. I am not sure if the "X" is related or as you just said maybe a capture "recapture" mark. It very well could be as it seems many are not very well stuck, but I would have to defer to others on that one. Quite a possible history though. American, Russia, Finland back to Russia.
I thought that the Civil Guard "S" was always accompanied by a number, though? Not sure.
Are there any numbers stamped on the side of the barrel?
When I get it I'll post more photos.
Here's a good example of what a Civil Guard number COULD look like (these were applied regionally, so some variations can be encountered).... this one is marked to Pohjus Kymeenlaakso in South East Finland...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1917left-1.jpg
Also, the Civil Guard 'S' can be encountered with out a number following it. The squiggle to the 11 o'clock of the eagle on the receiver of the rifle pictured below (same rifle as above) that looks like a piece of hair is a lightly struck Civil Guard 'S'...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1917recx-1.jpg
Originally rifles were stamped with the Civil Guard number on the stock only. By the mid 1920s this was stamped on the metal instead of or as well as the wood.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...917stock-1.jpg
...and here's a photo of the whole rifle. Remington 1917 M91. All original matching Remington parts...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1917bigx-1.jpg
I still can't definitively say anything as I still haven't received the rifle, but thank you for your responses.
@fernleaf are you saying that without the "S" stamped throughout the rifle it is not a Civil Guard mark? From the photos I have seen they do not seem to be completely uniform from rifle to rifle, but I do not know if the one on this rifle is a mark or not. The "X" I am pretty certain is not a associated with the "S" mark and I am also pretty certain it is not a capture mark, but I honestly have no idea what it could be.
No, I'm not saying that because you are right when you say Civil Guard markings aren't completely uniform. But having said that, I would expect to see Civil Guard numbers on it somewhere if it were a pre-war Civil Guard issue. I'm looking forward to seeing more photos of the rifle once you have it. Hopefully we will be able to shed some more light on it.
As for the 'X' mark - I don't know. The only similar mark associated with Civil Guard use is "-X-" which means rejected, but repairable, and "=X=" which means 'rejected, chuck it away". I don't believe it is a Soviet recapture mark. We have seen plenty of Soviet recaptured M91/30s - none with an X mark. When you think about it, any M91s or M91/30s captured from the Finns by the Soviets would have been put back into the Soviet supply system as they were no different than what they used already.
Another option is the 'x' and 'S' were put on by whatever country the Finns bought it off in the 1920s or 1930s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fernleaf
Okay. I understand what you mean. I will look out for it. Should be coming in some time this coming week.
Okay finally got the rifle today. I'll get better pictures of it in the future, but you can probably get an idea about it from here.
Attachment 50718Attachment 50719Attachment 50720Attachment 50721Attachment 50722
Civil Guard number on the stock places it to Etela-Uudenmaa in Southern Finland. The stock looks very nice - if you take the buttplate off there could be the date of the stocks production.
Took the buttplate off. No date.