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I am thinking of expanding my collecting interests a bit (hope the wife doesn't find out) into .22 caliber military rifles. I was wondering if there is some kind of list or if people couple point out to me what stuff is out there.
I currently have a Remington 513T US Property marked and waiting on an Enfield .22 trainer I just bought from a dealer.
Also what to look for and what to look out for.
Thanks
Lance posted a nice series on the .22 Enfields ...
.22 Enfield's (Collection Photo Essay)
Regards,
Doug
I have a Cooey model 82 Canadian trainer and a Savage 42m(b) trainer which was sent to England under the lend lease agreement. The savage is marked U.S. Property and has british proof marks.
The two on the left are Cooey 82 and the one with the scope is the 42m(b)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0700209c-1.jpg
I'm only " into " USGI WW2 trainers . My list would be :
Springfield 1922 , M1 , and M2 series
Mossberg 42MB
Mossberg 44US ( Lyman 57MS sighted and S100 sighted )
Remington 513-T Matchmaster
Stevens 416-2-T
Winchester M-75
Reising M-65 ( below serial # 5000 )
In addition to the pistols:
High Standard Model B-US
High Standard Model USA-HD
High Standard Model USA-HD MS
Colt Woodsman
Colt Service Model Ace
Chris
Thanks for the list, the pistols will be an problem in Massachusetts as they have to have either been previously owned and registered in Mass or on the list of acceptable "safe" handguns.
at least I have a start, will now start watching for other pieces.
Of course when my boys were younger they loved the 10/22's and could go through a brick in a couple hours, now I am shooting for score and taking my time and having fun so use less ammo
I got my Enfield 22 trainer, I don't know much about them will be learning. It doesn't look like the barrel is sleeved. It appears made in 1942.
What can you guys tell me about it?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...514ec2a4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...34ee5f75-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...599f9a14-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cfcb7007-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fd9dffdd-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...961f4c5d-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0a4c61fe-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...54b23cad-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d449a3bd-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cba8946f-1.jpg
Indeed a very odd looking example...the Aussie #6 ex rifle had a receiver like that...but the square part in front of the rear sight is still wrong. Can't wait to find out what's the poop on this?
I took it apart and all the metal under the wood had a greenish coating on it, under that was a very nice blue, also the barrel had a different number on it with the serial number of the receiver stamped on it as well
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2f5f9688-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3d43283a-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e97105e1-1.jpg
How extremely frustrating!
All the photos are reasonably sharp, EXCEPT the photo of the left side of the receiver, which may hold the clue to the whole construction - I think there has been a bit of "cut & paste" applied here.
The greenish surface on the barrel makes me think "Indian", but as I explained in detail on another thread, it is important to look carefully at what is actually in front of your eyes before diving in with preconceived ideas.
PLEASE post a clear photo of the left side of the receiver! And another of the right side, showing the backsight section.
Here is another view of the left side of the receiver. Let me know what other shots you want I will go up to my gun room and take anything you want
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e279607d-1.jpg
Thanks (I had in the meantime discovered that in the Photobucket set). Not very clear, but clear enough to strengthen my suspicion that a MkIII type receiver has had the "ears" for the No.4-type ladder sight fitted. Hence the orphaned sight base on the barrel. Take a close look yourself for the differences in color and finish that may show up. Try rotating the reciever under a very directional light, and borderlines may become apparent.
Maybe it was originally a proper No.2 MkIV, but someone altered it to take the ladder sight. It seems implausible that the rifle was factory or arsenal assembled with both types of backsight.
It would still be a good idea to have better photos of the left and right sides of the receiver.
All the photos of numbers and markings are not very helpful until the "history" of the receiver can be made a little clearer.
In the new "Military Surplus" 2014 magazine on page 32 the person writing up the Enfield .22's has the same style rifle with the rear sight. There are better pictures of it there, the serial numbers are very close, his is 2889 and appears to have a barrel sleeve. His came from Samco mine from SOG. He said his is an Indian No 2, says it was marked No 2 Mk III and FR on the butt socket. According to the author Steve Woods, "this Indian rifles had been modified by removing the tangent rear sight and fitting brackets to the rear of the receiver to allow the mounting of a No 4-typoe aperture rear sight. This sight was further modified by grinding off the 300-yar fixed battle aperture so that the shooter had to use the aperture on the fold-up leaf.
This sounds just like mine so I wonder if it is a factory rebuild since two private owners normally wouldn't come up with the same modification IMHO.
Hmmm, sounds like I guessed more or less right in the "what" (ears welded on) and "where" (India). The question of "who" (arsenal or private) is not so easy, as one person may make a modification that another person finds to be a good idea and therefore copies. Like "tanker" rifles. So ... plausible, but not yet proven.
I wonder how we could find out if the #4 sight was arsenal or "aftermarket"
It's most likely an Indian conversion. The FR on the butt socket is Indian factory repair mark.
Nice .22 SMLE, I have one just like it. Pic's are and what I think the rifle was modified for are posted at:
Indian Rifle No. 2 Mk 4*____set up for L1A1 training????
Warning, collecting .22's are addictive!!
Lance,
Much the same markings as mine the 502 WS **
I agree .22's are addictive, I have a US Property Remington 513T for the Military side and then 3 10/22's, 2 Savages FVT and BVT, an Anschutz 54, a Marlin (?) SQ880 bolt, S&W AR15-22, and 9 or is it 10 (maybe 11) .22 handguns.
Now I am going to start looking for US Property .22's, I have enough of the big calibers in Military stuff.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e9e74f37-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5c981b54-1.jpg
The photos provided by Lance are precisely what we needed. As Peter Laidler suggested on the linked thread, there must have been some artificers with a lot of time on their hands...
Between wars that would happen, in the Navy we used to strip and paint compartments at the end of every cruise so we would get some done every year, down to bare metal. it is "makey workey" or busy hands are happy hands
I have these two manuals posted on Ebay at this time along with a number of US weapons TMs and others such as Brit Flame Thrower, GS Manpack ( have a look at this quite informative), AR. 70, Bren and MG 42. Thanks.
To much gun stuff Ben, you better let me relieve you of some of that...
Your rifle was converted to .22rf in India. India added the mounting point and rear sight of a No.4 rifle to a No.1 rifle that had already been converted to .22 as a No.2 MkIV*. The rear sight modification was done at the Indian Depot 502 Work Shop.
VERY VERY addictive.......................Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance
The list early on in the thread was nice, but there were US (I need to keep in mind this is an international boeard - please forgive the occasional chauvanistic lapse) military, or military-style .22s before 1922, including at least the following (all are expensive):
(1) Winchecter conversion of 1870 Springfield (made under Remngton license) .50-70 Navy rifle
(2) 1898 Krag - finished rifles and barreled actions for field conversion)
(3) Winder musket (based on the M1885 low-wall)
(4) Springfield Hoffer-Thompson
(1) is VERY rare, less than 100 made (looking, wistfully)
(2) rare, about 800 made, but can be found. I have one of these.
(3) probably the only fairly "common" one of the group (don't want one - collect SA stuff only)
(4) rare, and few have survived (looking, wistfully)
True , but as I said , my collecting was / is WW2 USGI and pre WW2 that was still in service in great numbers at the start of WW2 . The list reflected that . There were several others used in small numbers and there are a whole slew of post WW2 ones too , if that floats one's boat .
I also have a couple of Numrich 1903 .22 conversion kits and a Springfield 87M .22 Garand copy that are not USGI , but still fun . Oh , yes , and the military .22 adapter kit for the 60mm / 81mm / 4.2-inch mortars .
Chris
Trainers are very addictive ,
top to bottom
C#7mk1
#4 , bit of an oddball this one cant seem to find much info on it , the conversion was done in 68, lots of broad arrows , has a sleeved barrel but no Parker Hale marks on it , otherwise all matching including wood and mag .
#7Mk1 RAF contract
#8
Sht IV*
Sht IV*
LE II
Cooey M82
Ross
Martini Cadet 1928
Martini 1920
Springfield 87M wannabe Mi Garand trainer
i also have an Israile Mauser in ,22
and i have a #9 Mk1 Royal Navy contract due to arrive next week
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ainers03-1.jpg
Nice collection there dances with gophers. I can only confess to a couple of BSA Martinis (22LR) and this 22 SHT IV* that I picked up just last week. [IMG]http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/...ps08ec1b4a.jpg[/IMG]
Oh , I forgot the best one , though I'm not sure if this is the .22 version or not .
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5c8f5d64-1.jpg
Chris
Chris--Quote:
Originally Posted by emmagee1917
Neat photo. I believe its a the M1903A2 subcaliber device. I believe they were .30-06 Springfield and commonly used tracers to spot their hits on the targets.
--fjruple
I think so too Chris. It would be neat to do one up in .22 though. You could use it in your garage in the winter time with CB caps...full gun drills...few beers, few laughs.
They had them made up with 1903 actions ( 30-06 ) and some with 1922 ( or M1 / M2 ) actions ( .22 LR ) . Being outdoors , I'd guess 30-06 , but either would be nice to own along with the door knocker , of course.
Chris
What's that Chris? A small blank charge with a hardball for a projectile?Quote:
Originally Posted by emmagee1917
Slang nickname for the 37mm M3 AT gun.
Chris
The other would be fun too though.
A few more .22 trainers...
Attachment 58365Attachment 58366Attachment 58367
OK, enough of this modern stuff with restricted geography. Let's widen the net and see if anyone can identify this - which is older than all the stuff posted up to now!
Fusil modèle 1907 or 1907-15 converted to .22LR ?
Chris
Older than that! And not a conversion. But you are right - it is French.
And it is in .22 short!
Try again. More clues tomorrow!
I found it , but I don't know what to call it .
French rifle - unknown manufacturer Nationale Rifle&qu in French & Italian Rifle Forum Forum
Chris
Congratulations - You got it!
Some time after that old thread, I found out a little bit more about this trainer
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....ight=Nationale
If you dig out a photo of the Gras, you can see the resemblance. Since the thread linked above, I have acquired a chronograph, and was impressed to see that with the standard RWS .22 short cartridges (NOT the stuff used for rapid-pistol shooting, which is weaker) the muzzle velocity out of the 65 cm barrel is a solid 300 meters/sec. Hence its ability to be effective at 200 meters!
Neat ! I was not aware of this rifle before .
Thanks , Chris