Not a Happy Chappy!

Took a couple of rifles to the range today to zero the scopes.
Attachment 49694Attachment 49695

Running a soft load that equates to aussie milsurp ammo to get them squared away, MF56 with an average of 2430fps.

My loads were 38.5gr AR2206H pushing a 174gr. Sierra matchking, in the No.4T they put out ...

1. 2420 lo 2420
2. 2443 hi 2447
3. 2444 av.2438
4. 2438 es.26.91
5. 2447 sd 10.77 group 1.691

The No.1 HT gave me a slightly slower speed with an annoying spread.
1. 2350 lo 2332
2. 2351 hi 2474
3. 2474 av 2382
4. 2332 es 14.20
5. 2402 sd 57.76 group 1/2 wide but vertical spread of 2.5in. in keeping with the varying velocity.
Still in all I was reasonably satisfied, will just need to up the load a bit for the SMLE.

But that's not my swearing point, 2nd last shot with the HT, the optics looked like it had a light oil spray, ignored it and pushed the last round downrange, now I had a more defined crazing pattern on the rear lens, not oil after all.

So a better look when I got home looks like rear lens seperation, I hope thats all it is, but there is a bit of crystalization that may be shattered/chipped inner lens, will not know for sure until I strip it.
The rear lockring is supertight, this will be fun, My fancy scope ring tools don't budge it, I may have to knotch the edge and use a collet type spanner........any suggestions?:runaway:

Hi Muffet sorry to hear about the poss lense issue looked at the load data ran it through a program I have and it is light it I inputed 39gn 06H @ 2,436 @41,000 app psi with the SMK and that's what it came up with.

I dawdle doing velocity spreads and do not tie it into grouping and let the barrel cool right off rather than try to do 2 things at once. As how can you get an accurate measurement between the 2nd round and the 15th consecutive.

If and when I get my BSA No.4 T sorted and the load I am looking at works I will post it for all just a few crinkles to iron out, but it projects 2440fps for 36,000 psi with the SMK.
I have shot it and it is very nice to shoot just working through a logical order it clover leafs at 25m but the real stuff eluded me at 300m so am trying things.
I have to ensure the rifle is right'oh before attempting to give the load for the forum to utilise

Love the look of the HT

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

The rear lockring is supertight, this will be fun, My fancy scope ring tools don't budge it, I may have to knotch the edge and use a collet type spanner........any suggestions?:runaway:

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Take a block of gumwood or something equally tough about 3 inches square or whatever size will fit in your bench vise and turn a recess in one end about .75" deep with gradually tapering sides, so that the diameter at half depth is about equal to the OD of the scope tube. Get a piece of thin, dry, ungreased leather, place it over the hole and jam the scope down into the hole. Drape the edges of the leather over the sides of the block of wood and clamp both down hard in your vise. If the vise and you and the right height, you can now lean down on the scope as you use both hands to turn it, in the right direction.

Yeah Cinders, I know it's a light load, the thinking is to match the velocity to the original to get correct scope adjustment.
I'm afraid I put no store in computer generated load programs, the variations of barrels/wear and shooting conditions, weather/temp. really blow the ideal world away.
My competition loads are more realistic as my trophy collection can testify, my heavier loads do not get posted on the forums, but there is several of the better testing programs I have done on Gunboards on old posts.

Surp' , I tried that trick, my block is actually a knurled metal one to match the locking rim.
I let it soak overnight and tried again. My fancy tool did the job.
There are a lot of expressions that can be used, just a few nice ones come to mind........Murphy had the day off......there really is a God.....the Gods love me......and for the athiests among us.....thank ffing C for that.
Attachment 49732

The lens were seperated but intact, the strange appearance was where lines of Balsam crisscrossed the surface.
Attachment 49733
My guess is that this lens has been glued before, I say that because the lens's started to clean up with Metho, this type job usually requires Acetone, which I ended up using to clean the rough pattern of original glue which was the crazing that had me thinking fracture.
So now I just need to reglue and reassemble........well maybe a few reglue attempts, getting a bubble free bond is always fun, or has been in the past.:rolleyes:

P.S I found the reason for the velocity variation, my excuse is old timers, Pete L. would say we aren't to bright , that's why they sent us here, but I reckon if you are from down under, it's hard to remember everything when you are upside down and the bloods rushing to the head..........different case capacity.

Hey Muffett,

I am about to start working up a load to replicate the military load for use in my HT

Starting point would be great...pm if you like.

I am an experienced and careful hand loader...

Regards,

Craig

Starting load of 2208 38gns, Max 42 gns. Use a chronny

Loads and accuracy will vary depending on your barrel/action.
I prefer 2206, but lately have been playing with 2206H, due to the shortages of the earlier powder.
The reason I use them over 2208 is because, as a faster burning powder, they give a better bump up with the 174 Sierra pills, whereas 08 and 09 burn much slower and really need a handfull more to get the same velocity.
I stick to ADI powders because of the availability and use the ADI charts as starters and maximum guides.

You will need to workup your loads as Bindii said, use a chronograph, you will find a lower velocity will give a tight group, but will not match your sight graduations.
As Cordite was a very hot burning propellant with a pressure spike, we cannot fully duplicate the Milsurp round, but we can either match the short ranges - 100-600, or the long ranges, 700-1000. So it's better to work the shorts as they will be played with more often, and record the variations for the others.
Have fun. (and watch the pressure)

Hi Muffet the reason I use a load data program is the 6.5/284 I have its barrel life is measured in 100's of rounds not 1000's like the smelly I could shoot out a barrel just playing with pills, loads, jump, primers, cases so I find something close and go either side one thing at a time changing multiple things you may never find the right node, but I really like the 6.5 the Berger 140gn VLD's are like pencils.

Still the program it helps me get round about's for velocity with the SMLE but I look at projected pressure and always look for pressure signs different combinations can do rather nasty things but I prefer 09 as the aim is to get a good high case fill ratio so to try and negate flash over that could possibly happen with say a 55-60% case fill, and as you will know the old reloaders trick always use a fill more than 50% as that will stop a double load in the case if you err.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Loads and accuracy will vary depending on your barrel/action.
I prefer 2206, but lately have been playing with 2206H, due to the shortages of the earlier powder.
The reason I use them over 2208 is because, as a faster burning powder, they give a better bump up with the 174 Sierra pills, whereas 08 and 09 burn much slower and really need a handfull more to get the same velocity.
I stick to ADI powders because of the availability and use the ADI charts as starters and maximum guides.

You will need to workup your loads as Bindii said, use a chronograph, you will find a lower velocity will give a tight group, but will not match your sight graduations.
As Cordite was a very hot burning propellant with a pressure spike, we cannot fully duplicate the Milsurp round, but we can either match the short ranges - 100-600, or the long ranges, 700-1000. So it's better to work the shorts as they will be played with more often, and record the variations for the others.
Have fun. (and watch the pressure)

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Stuck with 2208 as I use it in my 7mm08.

38.5 grains behind a Sierra 174 grain HPBT grouped touching each other at 50 metres. I think I will stick to this load which is mild as my eyes are not up to shooting at longer ranges through the four power scope anyway.

Thanks for your help with this.

Regards,

Craig Eberhardt

"I am about to start working up a load to replicate the military load for use in my HT"

Unless you have a goodly stash of 174gn Mk7 bullets, you will be starting from way behind.

Finding a propellant/primer combination that duplicates the burn-curve of a big chlorate-rich primer and fast-burning sticks of Cordite will probably be marginally easier.

How so ?

Don't I really just need a bullet with a similar BC and a charge that gives a similar MV?

The Mk7 projectile is an open base lead cored with an ALI or paper/ fibre internal point giving a centre of mass further back than full lead core also a longer bearing surface all of which means different behaviour down range. To check this use a 303 target sight to see if your reloads match the range marks on the sight all the way out to 1000yds.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

The Mk7 projectile is an open base lead cored with an ALI or paper/ fibre internal point giving a centre of mass further back than full lead core also a longer bearing surface all of which means different behaviour down range. To check this use a 303 target sight to see if your reloads match the range marks on the sight all the way out to 1000yds.

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Anyone know the MV and BC of the mark vii round?

This is a good thread for loading data!

Sorry for the news about your HT Muffet.

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Originally Posted by Craig Eberhardt

Anyone know the MV and BC of the mark vii round?

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The MV is supposed to be 2440 fps. I have seen some faster and slower. The BC i dont know but you could work it out if you know the actual drop from 100yds to 500yds or 700yds as long as you know the MV.
Find an old central 303 sight and count the MOA from 300yds to the 5oo yd or 700yd marks and do the sums or ballistic calculator.

I use Hodgdon Varget. Is that 2206 or 2208?

2208 :thup::thup:

Thanks

Just curious here, AR2206H? 38.5gr of 2206H is above the max load of 37.5gr for a 174gr bullet and you intend to go higher? So its not what looks like a soft load to me. 38.5Gr AR2208 is my load, 1/2gr above start, I use Barnaul 174gr flat base FMJs, 1943 canadian boxer primer cases, fed210 primers.

Interesting comment on vertical spread, I might up my load a bit to see if that reduces the vertical spread I get, though I was thinking I have a bedding problem. Can you explain this table as 2420 to 2447fps spread (so 27fps) doesnt look excessive to me. Especially on my 1943 brass which varies from 165gr to 172gr.

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Originally Posted by ssj

Just curious here, AR2206H? 38.5gr of 2206H is above the max load of 37.5gr for a 174gr bullet and you intend to go higher? So its not what looks like a soft load to me. 38.5Gr AR2208 is my load, 1/2gr above start, I use Barnaul 174gr flat base FMJs, 1943 canadian boxer primer cases, fed210 primers.

Interesting comment on vertical spread, I might up my load a bit to see if that reduces the vertical spread I get, though I was thinking I have a bedding problem. Can you explain this table as 2420 to 2447fps spread (so 27fps) doesnt look excessive to me. Especially on my 1943 brass which varies from 165gr to 172gr.

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You have quoted the max load for 2206 not 2206h. Your load is soft if you are not using a chronny. Suggest you chronny some Mk7.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

You have quoted the max load for 2206 not 2206h. Your load is soft if you are not using a chronny. Suggest you chronny some Mk7.

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No, well slight typo.

Max load for 2206H in the ADI book is listed as 38gr with 174gr Sie HPBT this is the 6th addition.
for 2206 which is obsolete 37.5 for 174gr.

On ADi's website, ditto.

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handlo...re=303+British

Yet 38.5 of 2206 is a soft load?

Doesnt look that way to me, now if its 2208, yes OK.

I mean 2208 shows 2506fps v 2446 for 2206H, so really you could look at 40~41gr of 2208 and get the velocity you want at a lower pressure.

Chrony, no, I mean is it calibrated to start with? The point is to look for pressure signs, ie greatly flattened primers, on top of that the 303 case seems to stretch far more on hot loads so staying low points at better case life and receiver life for what is now a 70year old gun.

There are so many variables in the rifles. I have more than a few i use a No5 as a work rifle and the chronny is the most important tool in the reloading room for the 303.
38.5 of 2208 is a soft load.
Muffs rifle is a law unto its self. The other thing to know what was the peak pressure Mk7 produced because most of the modern loads used today are way lower than cordite pressures ( lawyering, PYA)

When I read all about this reloading palava, I'm glad that I used to use the age old maxim of 'if the Queen don't supply it, I don't shoot it!'

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

When I read all about this reloading palava, I'm glad that I used to use the age old maxim of 'if the Queen don't supply it, I don't shoot it!'

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The problem now is the ex-army stuff I know a few ppl target shoot is becoming very variable, and over $1 a go.

regards

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

When I read all about this reloading palava, I'm glad that I used to use the age old maxim of 'if the Queen don't supply it, I don't shoot it!'

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Peter the problem is the Queen stopped supplying a long time ago out here. With your knowledge on how to fix them we can keep shooting them. Reloading is not a black art made easier without cordite.
Having just spent less than 2 hrs building ,testing and selecting a load for a new rifle so cant be to hard if a down underer can do it.:D

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

When I read all about this reloading palava, I'm glad that I used to use the age old maxim of 'if the Queen don't supply it, I don't shoot it!'

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I agree. It all sounds so bloody hard and complicated to me. I'm stockpiling as much ex mil as I can so when I'm ready to shoot I'll never have to look at a reloading press.

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Originally Posted by Homer

I agree. It all sounds so bloody hard and complicated to me. I'm stockpiling as much ex mil as I can so when I'm ready to shoot I'll never have to look at a reloading press.

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It can't be that hard. I held a commission and I taught myself to do it by reading a book.

Reloading isn't difficult at all. Reasonable accuracy can be achieved with simple effort. Extreme accuracy just requires a bit of tweaking. In Canada, virtually no North American ball ammo is available. The imported varies in corrosive and performance so I make all my own and have for 35 years...I have a book full of records of good and bad loads so things don't go off the tracks. I also have a library full of manufacturer's loading specs for a starting place. Then of course you could go to the manufacturer's website to check...