1899 M91TS questions

Good Evening All,

I've been expanding my WWII collection and came across a Carcano that I first thought was an M38. It was missing the upper hand guard, front and rear bands. I won the auction and found when it arrived that it is Brescia M91TS dated 1899. There is minor pitting along the stock line in a few places. The bore appears sharp, dark, but shootable. The bolt was a mess and did not function properly but after disassembling and cleaning I believe it is usable. It was sitting in a stock that it does not fit in properly. The stock has two bolts that I believe are recoil lugs? Does anyone know what rifle this stock belongs on? I'm very new to Carcano rifles and the more I read the more I realize the combinations are almost infinite - and the more confused I get.

My plan is to configure the rifle to a 91/28 as I believe that is how it would have been set up in WWII. So, I can work on the stock I have to get the rifle fitting properly, but still need to find the upper handguard, or I can replace the stock entirely. Thoughts? I have already ordered the upper and lower bands, band spring as well as a follower and follower spring. Concerning the handguard, any ideas where I can get one? I've scoured the internet and haven't found a thing.

I can post additional pics later if that would help.

However, I also recognize that this rifle is only a second year production Moschetto 91TS, so I wonder if I should put it back to its original configuration?

I appreciate the wealth of knowledge I've received related to a different rifle a while back and look forward to the same on this one.

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6f24e849.jpg

Before you do anything, you need to verify the caliber. This rifle has all the appearances of a post war conversion to 8mm. Carcano's do not typically have stock bolts, let alone two of them and this is something that was done to them during this conversion. Very early rifles have one stock bolt in the receiver area but these were phased out as internal reinforcement was added.

QUOTE=Aragorn243;288852]Before you do anything, you need to verify the caliber. This rifle has all the appearances of a post war conversion to 8mm. Carcano's do not typically have stock bolts, let alone two of them and this is something that was done to them during this conversion. Very early rifles have one stock bolt in the receiver area but these were phased out as internal reinforcement was added.[/QUOTE]

I believe it is 6.5. I have some PRVI 6.5 ammo and the bullet fits well at the muzzle. Not the most precise method, but I don't have a micrometer. The rifle does not fit correctly in the stock so I assumed it may have been for one of the 8mm rifles that somehow found its way to this rifle, but I haven't found any info online specific to those two stock bolts. However, there are plenty of pics online showing carcanos with those bolts. With a little work I can get it mated to the stock correctly, but if the two would never have met during arsenol overhauls I'd rather go in another direction.
http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/...ps00f59f7b.jpg

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1e8839eb.jpg

"Italy's Battle Rifle" only shows the 8mm conversions with those two stock bolts so it may have been bought and installed by someone trying to restore the rifle without knowing the difference. They admit to not having every variation but I doubt they would put stock bolts in a standard 6.5. Your barrel would eat 6.5 if it were 8mm so definitely not 8mm.

Thanks for looking that up. I think I'll drop that stock and look for a complete stock set. There's a dealer I've seen at the Tulsa gun show with a large Italian inventory. Maybe I'll get lucky. Those (91/28) handguards are terrible to find - I may have to make one....

can you take picture of the bayonet lug? It will tell you if it is in a m91TS or m91/28 conversion. I luckily acquired a M91TS repaired in 1928, but they kept it in m91TS configuration.

It is a TS, my camera didn't do the best job but here's the pic:

http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/...psf92bb710.jpg

Since I'm a WWII collector, I prefer putting it in a configuration that would be correct for WWII. Since my original post I have not been able to find a correct stock.....hmm.....it might be easier to catch a unicorn. I don't really want a converted rifle because of the twist problem; however, I might be interested in a trade for a true 91/28.

Something is not right about that front sight and I don't have time this morning to investigate it further. I'm starting to suspect however that you have a cavalry carbine, not a TS. In any case, you are missing the front barrel band and bayonet lug.

The reason I say this is because the front sight matches nothing I can find and the small stud on the bottom doesn't match anything either. The upper sight looks like that found on a cavalry carbine but is difficult to tell as they have a folding baynet which fits around the sight and which may explain the bottom stud.

OK, did some more investigating this afternoon and it could indeed be a TS, the original one, not the M91/24TS which is what I was looking at this morning. This version could come with either the standard bayonet lug or the "TS" bayonet lug

You are much more versed in these than I and I defer to your expertise. My research indicated to me it is an original TS. I think they we're converted because the bayonet issue. Correct me, but I think either stock set (91/24 or 91/28) would work and be correct for the upgrade..

The upgrade that I saw for the original TS appeared to be simply the removal of the side mount lug and welding on of the standard mount lug. The barrel band seems to be unique to the original TS series. That will probably make that stock difficult to find.

I'm getting my info from "Italy's Battle Rifle" by the way. A few copies may still be available. The authors are Russ Atendell and Steve Woodrum.

It looks like the Metal work is an original TS, with Barrel machined stops for the original
"End Locking" Bayonet (Cross Lug and Byt slot).

Very Early ( 1897- about 1900s early) TS had One or Two cross Bolts, until the wood Inletting was re-configured to eliminate the Bolts...occasionally a Wrist Cross-Bolt was added "in the field" if the stock was beginning to crack (during WW I).

The rifle Wood seems to have been converted during WW I from a simple "Musketoon" ( underneath sling swivels) to a Combined Musketoon-Carbine ( side-slings attachments added ( ie, new Barrel sling band), and exchanging the original cross lug, Jug shaped Stock cap with a normal M91 Rifle Bayo. Band ( like the eventual M91/28 Model.).

BTW, the 91 TS was only produced from 1897; the Cav. Carbine 1893, and the Long Rifle 1892. All are classed "Mod.91" ( date of official adoption of Design).

The Number of WW I variants of the TS are mindboggling, as many "conversions" of the Musketoon style to a "Universal" style were carried out by Field Depots and Individual Unit Armourers. So much so that the final "model" only came about in 1928.

Doc AV

Doc, if I understand correctly, cross bolts are possible for the original TS? Of all of the rifles I own, the carcano is by far the worst with regard to having any consistency. I'm going to have to buy Italy's Battle Rifle and do a lot more research. Now I'm not sure if the stock could be correct or not. Thanks for the continued good information!