-
11/44 ROF(F) No5 MkI with MkII rear sight
-
Why is that rifle cocked. Not a SAFE practice
-
Relax, it's stored with the bolt open and the three rules are always followed. It's just cocked for the pictures. The ammo in the pics never moves from the shelf either. Decocking would be more dangerous wouldn't it? Because, if a round did manage to find it's way into the rifle, the firing pin would then be resting on the primer!
-
Cycle the bolt several times to make sure your visual empty chamber mag look is actually empty close bolt holding trigger to the rear. Rifle now safe with less tension on the spring.
A cocked rifle is an indication that the rifle is ready to fire and no one other than the person who cocked the rifle knows if it is loaded or not. To take photos of a rifle with the bolt open shows that the rifle is safe and not ready to fire.
I store all my rifles with the bolt closed on an empty chamber. I dont take my bolts out for storage because that is one way to finish up with miss matched rifles. Which seems to be a big problem in the USA.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bindi2
Which seems to be a big problem in the USA.
I don't really think that's the case...
-
I've heard of people who aren't gun people store bolts separately (and then lose them after a few years!). I've never heard of a collector storing the bolt separately however. Obviously it's a bad idea.
I store the rifles bolt open so air can move through the bore. It helps prevent rust issues, especially if there's a risk of the rifle encountering humid air.
Checking the firearm is empty when you pick it up is firearms 101 IMO (even though MANY people can't seem to grasp the concept, same with muzzle awareness!). The rifle is cocked, safety off for the pictures because I generally just think gun look better in that condition for pictures. These pictures are admittedly not the best, but I don't have my good camera right now and the one I do have isn't focusing well for some reason. That doesn't mean I change much else for how I compose my photos however. I usually make an effort to try to get my pictures to look good, including setting up the rifle itself in a way I find pleasing.
-
All the theorising can be alleviated by simply following the FIRST rule of firearms/weapons that hammered into you from day one. Nothing to do with bolt open or closed but DO NOT EVER, NEVER, EVER POINT WEAPON TOWARDS ANYONE, EVEN IN JEST. If everyone followed that simple rule, the rest would be academic!
I suppose the next one, a bit secondary, would be always make sure that before handing a weapon over, YOU check and clear it AND SO DOES HE!
Re the Mk2 No5 backsights, I seem to recall that5 they were a common feature on the wartime made No5's. They certainly featured on our old ones
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
I don't really think that's the case...
There are more reported miss matched bolts there than here by a long way.
I have nearly been shot by a person whose safety practices were bad and did not improve with tuition , just brainless and Dumb. ADs are no fun at anytime when you are the RO or trainer and even less fun on a returned firearms first outing on returning from a gunsmith. I consider all firearms to be loaded until i have cleared them and consider cocked ones even more dangerous.
-
I think you need to take and breath and relax. You're preaching to the wrong people. Specially this one.
-
Leaving a rifle cocked is just plain bad practice. No ifs, buts, or maybes.
In my opinion, it shows a cavalier attitude.
It is simple matter to hold the trigger closed when closing the bolt so why not just do it?
-
Bad practice, or what I'd call pxxx-poor practice I agree Beery, but perhaps not a 'safety' bad practce I would argue
-
Well, if he chose to never show us another picture of his stuff, I wouldn't blame him.
-
I do store my LE's with the bolt closed and FP spring uncompressed, but does it make a difference? Mag springs do not wear out when stored loaded, I don't think a FP spring would wear out from being stored in a compressed condition, although I do agree it's poor practice, but I don't know why, unless the FP spring is made of inferior material. Fire arm springs wear from being used, the action of compressed and uncompressed. Is a photograph of a cocked rifle dangerous? Did the photographer place himself in a precarious position when taking the photograph?
-
I think it's pretty clear the OP took the photo with the rifle cocked because he wanted to show it cocked. He has said that was for the photo only, and that he stores his rifles with the bolts open. Trying to judge someone's safety practices from one static photo is impossible, unless someone posts a photo of a gun being pointed at someone else. As for storage, for Lee-Enfields, bolts open or closed is fine. I don't like leaving Mausers bolt open because then they are cocked and that DOES put some constant strain on the springs.
I'd like to thank the OP for showing us his rifle--it's a very nice looking wartime Jungle carbine. Hope you come again to the forum.
Cheers
Ed
-
Ha, I'm not taking criticism badly. I know that I use safe gun handling practices, so that's enough for me. It does seem to me like you guys are just getting wound up over nothing though, lol. Pictures that have composed subject as a far cry from how things really are. I don't leave my rifles sitting out loose like that and so close to ammo! (even if that ammo is collectable and display only) I just took the pictures there because it was an easy spot t take them and it was too dark outside. The rifle was cocked because I thought it looked better. As for storage, generally it doesn't matter all that much of the spring is compressed or not. Only movement of the spring wears it out, same reason storing mags loaded is fine to do. So long as they are stored unloaded, away form where ammo is handled, checked and double checked, and periodically inspected for signs of rust they should be fine. Another reason I like to store with bolts open is because it allows for a faster visual inspection of the chamber with no manipulation required of the weapon usually. The obvious exception to the being stored away from ammo rule are guns being stored for fast access as a weapon, which obviously need to be loaded (not sure about the rules in other countries, but the US Supreme court ruled that guns have to be allowed to be stored loaded and ready to be fired in case of self defense). But, you should have more direct control over it than guns squirreled away for general storage. Practicing the three rules is paramount for safety when you do handle the firearms, no matter their storage condition.
I hope you guy did at least enjoy seeing pictures of my No5. I've wanted a good WW2 example of a No5 for a long time, so I'm excited about it. what I've read about the rear sight is that they were only produced and installed on rifles during WW2. After the war, they were declared obsolete in favor of the MkI milled rear sight, and almost all of the No5's that had the MkII rear sight had them replaced with a MkI.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
shmlnaaa
what I've read about the rear sight is that they were only produced and installed on rifles during WW2. After the war, they were declared obsolete in favor of the MkI milled rear sight, and almost all of the No5's that had the MkII rear sight had them replaced with a MkI.
Don't know about that for sure. All I know for sure is they are supposed to have a sight graduated to 800 yds...Peter will know for sure, and a couple others...
-
I don't think that they were ever declared obsolete. We still had them in the 60's. Obsolescent maybe but that meant that they could continue in use until there were no more stocks available from Ordnance
-
I've had hundreds of No.5's through the years and very few fitted with wartime Mk.2 rear sights. In fact, I could probably count them on one hand if I could remember. It's a nice, honest rifle.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
I think you need to take and breath and relax. You're preaching to the wrong people. Specially this one.
Bad unsafe practices in ones own company tend to be practiced in company of others.
I do like breathing and having been very close to not breathing, today is a good day in fact a very good day.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brian Dick
Mk.2 rear sights
Are those the cheap thin type sights? Not the simple two range flip...and I know what the Mk3 looks like...
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
browningautorifle
Are those the cheap thin type sights? Not the simple two range flip...and I know what the Mk3 looks like...
The MkII rear sight for the No5 is pressed sheet metal with a flip up ladder that's graduated to 800 yards. It's the rear sight that's fitted to the rifle in the OP.
-
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bindi2
There are more reported miss matched bolts there than here by a long way.
...
I would offer that the primary reason there are so many 'more reported miss matched bolts' in Yankland is that all the Enfields, excepting some of the Savage-made ones, have been imported and passed through heaven only knows how many sets of hands in the process. I'd wager not all of them care a dot if the bolts matched the rifles, and that to most of them regarding Enfields, 'one rifle, one bolt, one magazine' was the rule of the day.
Admittedly, leaving any weapon cocked is not good practice, but after all we're not in the same room with it so ...
-
Funny, no one in my last thread made this big of a deal about rifles being cocked in the pictures. Now you all seem to want to comment on it. In fact, this is the first time anyone has said anything at all about it since I started collecting years ago. Everyone else that I know that take pictures of guns also like to set them up as they look when ready to fire also. Maybe there's slightly different safety protocols from country to country, but I've only seen people care about the usual stuff like muzzle sweeping, not checking to see if a rifle's loaded or not, and lack of trigger discipline. I argue that decocking and dry firing is less safe than leaving a bolt cocked since the process WILL set of a cartridge in the chamber (or leave the rifle so that any bump will cause a negligent discharge). Anyway, it's not like I leave rifles sitting around with the bolts closed (just closed for staged pictures, when I'm arguably in almost direct control of the rifle still). They are kept open in storage for reasons I previously mentioned in other posts. This includes semi-auto rifles and rimfires. Dry firing rimfires can damage them, so it is NOT to be done. It's also pretty pointless and can add needless wear to center-fire self loaders. Better to use a method of handling that's universal across all batteries of arms.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=47555
Heh, there are even two cocked rifles in one picture in that link! I'll make a note to use the more safe practice of leaving rifles cocked for any pictures I ever post here in the future (will require no extra effort since almost all are taken that way). You guys will just have to deal with it. I'm not going to change how I do my safely composed pictures with my safely handled firearms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Paul S.
I would offer that the primary reason there are so many 'more reported miss matched bolts' in Yankland is that all the Enfields, excepting some of the Savage-made ones, have been imported and passed through heaven only knows how many sets of hands in the process. I'd wager not all of them care a dot if the bolts matched the rifles, and that to most of them regarding Enfields, 'one rifle, one bolt, one magazine' was the rule of the day.
...
If a lot of the other English speaking countries didn't have the extensive imports from all over the world that the US has historically had, then I bet you're right. I'm sure a lot of countries or groups didn't care about matching parts so long as the rifle worked. The more rifles were used also increases the likelihood that a part needs to be replaced or is just arbitrarily swapped for whatever reason.
-
Mate you posted pictures of your rifle so people would make comments didn't you? Ok so now people are making comments. To me, cocking a rifle for a photo is a strange thing to do. It's just my opinion as it is others so time to move on I think.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Homer
Mate you posted pictures of your rifle so people would make comments didn't you? Ok so now people are making comments. To me, cocking a rifle for a photo is a strange thing to do. It's just my opinion as it is others so time to move on I think.
I would have preferred more discussion about the rifles themselves. Decocking a rifle requires extra effort and is impossible to do with many designs without dry firing.
---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter Laidler
I don't think that they were ever declared obsolete. We still had them in the 60's. Obsolescent maybe but that meant that they could continue in use until there were no more stocks available from Ordnance
Just to make sure, you're talking about the pressed sheet metal rear sights on No5's and not the ones on No4's? If so, that lends evidence to them being less common during WW2 also, versus them being common during WW2 and mostly and purposefully swapped out later. Just speculation.
-
shlmnaaa: Thanks for showing us your rifle. Can you make out what the lettering in paint is on the buttstock? Incidentally, I can't believe that storing a mainspring cocked wouldn't fatigue it in time. I've taken to storing most of my bolts fully de-cocked in a separate cabinet mainly to allow me to fit more rifles in the safes. Also my two-cents worth- absolutely no safety issue taking a photo of a cocked rifle that you know to be in a safe state in your own home. Anyone that thinks there is should consider taking a job writing manuals for the Canadian government.
Ridolpho
-
I would also like to thank you for showing photo's of your No.5. I have a well used 4/45 Faz.
IMO, how a person stores, displays or photo's their firearm(s) is his/her own business. As long as he/she feels they're safe then that should be plenty good enough for the rest of us. I keep certain rifles, shotguns and pistols from my collection at various locations throughout my house and cook shed that are not only cocked but fully LOADED as well. Safeties engaged of course.
I learned during my Millwright apprenticeship that as long as a spring is properly made from good quality materials storing it under tension has very little to no effect on it weakening over time. Working the spring is what leads to eventual fatigue and failure.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vintage hunter
I keep certain rifles, shotguns and pistols from my collection at various locations throughout my house and cook shed that are not only cocked but fully LOADED as well.
Sounds like the "rich" side of my family growing up. Loaded firearms might be found anywhere. Behind the kitchen door, in the barn, chicken house, shed, bathroom, wherever. Not a bad neighborhood, as there was no neighborhood!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vintage hunter
I learned during my Millwright apprenticeship that as long as a spring is properly made from good quality materials storing it under tension has very little to no effect on it weakening over time. Working the spring is what leads to eventual fatigue and failure.
No disagreement there.
Like Brian Dick (see Post #18), I've only seen a very small number of sheet metal No.5 rifle rear sights.
-
I cannot totally make out the painted numbers on the stock, only have a good guess at what some of them were. There appears to be at least thee rows of them, with two larger numerals on the upper right side of the stock and the rest being around the rear of the comb. The paint that they were made with protrudes from the surface quite a bit and didn't get into the wood grain very well, so it probably wore off easily in field conditions.
There is also a 601 over a 91 stamped, not painted, on the right side of the buttstock. Numerals are about 1/3" tall.
I concur about the spring thing. It may seem odd, but keeping them under constant tension within the parameters the spring was designed for for long periods of time should be perfectly fine. I've had some basic engineering training, and how metal generally acts under stress/strain was one of the first things I remember learning.
-
What is interesting to me is how many military rifles are carried cocked in historic pictures.
In photos of Boers holding rifles, (Anglo Boer War 1899-1902) about 1 in 3 Mauser or Martini rifles is cocked.
http://winegoggle.co.za/files/2013/01/boers.jpg
Indeed, in the famous picture of Louis Botha (while General in command on the Natal Front) which forms my avatar, his Boer Mauser carbine is cocked.
http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol017cb.html
I haven't systematically looked at long Lee Enfields in pictures of Imperial soldiers from the ABW to compare habits, but one suspects they would have been more disciplined.
-
A few years ago someone brought in to the Armourers shop at Warminster a rusted out Bren magazine found on one of the old parachute training areas. You could see live ammo in the top but as soon as they tapped the base on the bench, the mainspring asserted itself, ejected the base plate across the floor with a 'twwwwwwwangggggg' followed by the follower and rest of the live rounds - about 20 in all!
But no doubt, some others were absolute crap. Good engineering practice suggests to me that springs are best maintained in neutral
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RobD
military rifles are carried cocked
Well that's true Rob, but when in possible contact with the enemy, or even the chance of contact it's the habit to have one up the pipe and ready...safety applied. You do get variations where people want an empty chamber and loaded mag but that can come back to bite too.
