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I have a Colt 1911 in .455 caliber and I'm doing research on it. It's in pretty nice shape but it did not come with any magazines.
Anyone know how I should get started in a quest to find a magazine for this thing?
Any help is greatly appreciated because it's a nice old gun and I would love to make it whole again.
Thats cool. I never heard of any of those. Do you have any pics?
Here for your perusal is my British Army Contract 1917 .455 Eley Colt Government Model Pistol No. W 92124 which was 1 of 300 shipped to the London Armoury Company on March 30, 1917. xSentinal: Please post photos of your pistol; I'd love to see them. Does yours have the original .455 Webley auto barrel or a replacement .45 ACP barrel which is often the case with these pistols?
Close up of barrel markings indicate calibre .455 Webley self-loading cartridge, broad arrow British military property mark; brass length of .900 inches and 9 tons/square inch pressure. Also shown is a .455 Eley magazine for these pistols. These magazines are scare and expensive; one just sold on Gunbroker for $200; recent going prices for such magazines I've seen are around $300-plus. They are available every now and then but you have to look for them; good places to look are Ebay; Gunbroker and AuctionArms and even some of the For Sale sections of various Milsurp and Colt gun forums. Over the past few years I managed to get several of these magazines.
Here are photos of the 7-round packet of .455 Eley ammo dated January 30, 1919 and individual rounds with 1917 and 1918 head stamps issued for this pistol. Note the "Not for Revolvers" warning against using this ammo in the .455 Webley-Scott revolvers which took a different cartridge.
Here are two British contract .455 Webley auto barrels for this pistol. You can see the groove cut into the barrel below the hood to accept the .455 Eley auto cartridge. Such barrels are often marked with a "W" on the bottom of the barrel as shown in the photos (or sometimes an "E") or with British military inspection and property marks such as the crossed pennants and Crown/E etc on the barrel links.
You'll just have to advertise here on the WTB or watch Ebay for mags. Maybe your Gunbroker will have one eventually. You'll have to be ready to pay for it though...
Nobody has reproduced these magazines, as far as we know, so get reconciled to paying a lot for one, and hoping that it works.
Many of these guns have been altered to .45 by private owners over the years.
Wow, sorry I was away for the weekend. I did not expect so many replies. Where do I begin.
1. Yes, I can post some pics. I have them I just have to see how to do that here. I'll take a look in a minute.
2. It does have the correct .455 barrel. I have checked the specs before and had it checked by an expert.
3. I have gotten a few PM's already so hopefully I can get a magazine out of this if I can figure out how to do it without getting ripped off.
4. I certainly don't have any ammo. I did not think any existed. Where the heck did you find ammo? That is very cool.
A few quick pics ... if it works ;)
Ammo is around. I have only one in my collection, because I only needed one. You can find enough to shoot and load it out of .45 dies. The shell holder is amongst the available ones, just check for fit. You aren't going to shoot PPC with this so a few rounds would do I should think...the mag will cost you and don't get cheap or it won't happen. Beautiful old gun, it's been heavily polished and re-blued though. Doesn't matter, it's yours and going no-where...nice looking piece.
Nice British GM; thanks for posting. I looked long and hard for the ammo and got some by posting in various Want-to-buy listings and some on Gunbroker and Auction Arms.
Yes, it definitely has been re-blued, but here's the story behind it.
The lady I got it from said it was her recently deceased husbands and that he was in the air corp in WW2. While in the UK during the war he became friends with a guy in the UK air corp. One night they got to talking (drinking?) and they traded 1911's. After the war he shoved it in his trunk and never looked at it again. After he died she found it in other war stuff he had in trunk. So she says the way it is now is how it was then.
Now I did read stories online about some being re-blued by the UK gov't and reissued to their military during WW2. I don't know if those stories were true or not but I did read them in a few places. If so then this guy's story is believable since it has original barrel and the barrel looks like it was on it when blued as if done by a gov't for rust removal and protection and not for aesthetics. If done for aesthetics by a true gunsmith I would imagine it would have been done better.
Either way I love it and it is an old gun and not converted to .45 ACP. Still a piece of history and a nice one ... if I can find a magazine for it.
Not that I was chucking sh*t...like I say, I don't even have one. Nice old gun. Yes, you'll be able to find a mag, maybe even here if you post WTB for some time...it could take a while. Just be ready, all of us have told you it will cost enough to scare you. Then you'll have it.
I have a member here communicating with me due to this post already , so it looks like I may be able to get one and make this thing look a little more whole. I hope it ends up working out.
Man I like this place. :)
Told you it was possible...
Do a search for Buffalo Arms, they had both the 455 auto brass and correct bullets for your 455 auto. They use to make the cartridges from 45 Colt cases, shorten and turn an extractor groove then size them in 455 dies.
Buffalo might even have loaded modern 455 auto cartridges for sale - but will be expensive but still worth it to fire the pistol
Believe Fiocchi have made batches occasionally.
Anyone have one for sale? Am keeping an eye on Ebay, GB, etc.
Thanks!
Serial no W19194 of these guns sold for £11,000 at Bonhams auctions recently.
Hi MkVII,
The example in the Bonhams auction had great provenance that was reflected in that price.
My example was likely brought back by a Canadian at the end of WWI. These are tough guns to find in nice original condition and I'm not surprised they're bringing a lot of money on the collectors market.
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-Steve
FWIW, I just picked up one of these as well, mine's been refurbished by the British (looks to have been bead blasted and blued, then re-issued and has typical holster wear) and is marked to the RAF for WW2 service, but looks to have all its original WW1 parts. Proper .455 barrel (lightly frosted ahead of the chamber, but otherwise nice bore), proper 2-tone original .455 mag. Cool gun, just waiting on the transfer.
There were some other original finish guns with the one I picked up (it was a collection of six .455's offered through a dealer - I'm assuming an estate). A forum member here picked up two of the .455's in nicer shape than mine with original WW1 finish, but I could't afford the price tag right now! lol.
It was cool to see them all together, depute one example being really rough, how often do you ever see SIX .455 British Contract 1911's in one place at the same time?
Wow. Great find. Got a pic?
I love these guns. Lots of history.
I'll post a pic when I have the gun in-hand, maybe later in the week. Here in Canada you have to wait for the gov't to approve the transfer of handguns before you physically get them from the dealer.
I will post a few pics of mine as well ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Claven2
Perhaps a gallery album of original 1911's in .455 is in order?
-Steve
Yes, I definitely think we should do an MKL entry. Heck Steve, with your collection alone, we could cover off almost every major military 1911 variant in a series of Milsurp Knowledge Library entries if we ever find the time to do so ;)
how close to 45 ACP is that british 455? Or is it the same. Certainly looks very much alike.
semi-rimmed case. Neither will function properly in guns chambered for the other.
.455 Auto has a longer case than .45ACP and a stubbier more rounded bullet. Semi-rimmed, unlike the fully-rebated rim of the .45ACP. The .455 was a webley design for the P1913 Webley auto MkI, and they adapted their 1911 orders to use that same cartridge in WW1.
I already once posted pictures of mine, but since some were asking for additional samples :)
It's fully matching, including the magazine. Also it still has the original barrel and is RAF marked. Unfortunately it appears to have been reblued, but I'm pretty sure that was done very long ago, probably still during service.
Very interesting thread; looking forward to seeing more of these WWI British Colts. Like the idea of a British WWI Colts gallery too.
That's almost identical to mine, except my magazine (and the other 6 I looked at in the other guns) was not serialized and mine is marked RAF only on the frame, while yours has a cancelled RAF marking on the slide as well. Nice gun you have there! And the finish is consistent with the refinish mine got for WW2 service with the RAF. The safety and slide release on mine are similarly an original-looking Colt blue, while the frame and slide are what appears to be a light bead blasting and caustic salt blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Promo
I even have identical british proof markings on the barrel that date to when the gun was surplussed.
Mine is not import marked, but another gun with the same finish that I didn't buy (one of the 6 I looked at) is a probable RAF gun from the same surplus batch and had a distorted import mark on the bottom of the frame on the narrow part of the magazine well. Must have been a bugger to stamp it there!
My understanding is you can fire .45ACP out of the .455 Auto, but not the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk VII
WHB Smith's 1943 Basic Manual of Military Small Arms mentions this, but also notes "the practice is not recommended".
My father had a 1915 British contract 455 colt auto. He fired about 500x rounds of 45ACP ammo out of it and found that the locking lugs on the barrel and slide were damaged because the headspacing issues.
:yikes:Quote:
Originally Posted by rule303
Attachment 52669
I found this a long time ago. I would definitely NOT try firing a .45 ACP out of one of these guns because you are holding the round in by the extractor only and it is not a good fit. I have plenty of other 1911's to shoot. I'll hold off on this one until, maybe someday, hopefully I can get some of the right ammo.
Promo, yours is identical to mine, sn. 100618. Many were refinished at Enfield prior to WWII and yours looks like the typical Enfield rust blue. It's not unfortunate but just another day in the history of the weapon. I feel lucky to have one at all! I have another here recently sold to a Canadian collector and awaiting export. It was purchased from Joe Salter for a massive price, has a post service horribly polished blue finish and also had a .45ACP barrel in it which I replaced with an original for the buyer since he's an old friend and I felt sorry for him. It was advertised as original too. Caveat Emptor.
Most of what few .455 Colts I've seen had the same drama. (Seemd to show up more in the 1980s and early '90s. Haven't run across a good one in ten years or so.) IIRC, the extractor's different as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Would have one, except for the lack of barrels. (Never mind magazines.) Amazing that you had a spare! Old gunsmith's stash?
First I've heard of this. If anyone has a pic of how the extractors are different I'd really appreciate it. Would love to check mine and see if I have the right one.
Just curious. Could the OP just swap out the original .455 barrel and pop in a .45 acp barrel and use .45 mags and be able to shoot this 1911? Or does the conversion involve more that just a barrel and mag swap?
Semper Fi
Phil
JM, I'm not sure the extractors are different. I'll have to check. The barrels differ in that they are reamed a bit bigger and have a step in the hood, correct proofs, etc. Back in the 1950's when most of the ones in the USA were imported, they were converted before resale by changing the barrel and magazine. I had two spare barrels. One went into the pistol referenced above and the other to Fultons in England.
I finally got around to taking some quick snaps of my example. It's an RAF-issued gun, which I'm assuming was refinished in service between the wars (given it doesn't have a high-lustre blue like some of the vet bring back WW1 .455 1911's have). It's got a rack number (14) stamped into the MSH. RAF marked. Otherwise, a typical W-series .455 Colt. This one has the original barrel (proof marked from when it was sold out of service) and the original correct magazine. I believe it's not a bring back, but rather a gun sold to the trade after it became obsolete, or I suppose it could be a privately owned gun that got proofed in the UK during an ownership transfer back in the day. Who knows?
Also, I notice on mine and the other examples of RAF 1911's I've seen, the blue job looks to have been done over a light bead or soda blast, or is alternately a rust blue where the scale was left on a little longer than on high-gloss commercial guns, giving it a matte appearance. I originally though it was caustic blued, but once cleaned up, and in good light, I think it's rust blued. The safety and slide stop are high-gloss blued and don't look to have been refinished near as I can tell.
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The extractor is a bit different. A standard .45 ACP one can be slightly opened up to work with a file.
You have to change the ejector as well.
From what I have read that is exactly what a lot of returning GI's did. Just swap out barrel and magazines and go 45 acp. But after reading the above post about extractors I don't know if that is different or not.
I have never tried it worth mine. I keep mine exactly as is and I won't shoot it unless I find some .455 ammo. So probably never :) I have plenty of other 1911's to shoot.
FWIW, I'm not convinced there were a "lot of returning GI's" coming back to the States with .455 1911's. That would have been a really rare occurrence. More likely is that a bunch of US owners bought .455 guns when they were surplused by the brits in the years after WW2 (like my example) where the barrels and mags were swapped to deal with a local lack of .455 Auto ammo. The brits, when surplussing them, proof marked them on the barrel and if you swap that part, the provenance of the gun being sold out of service is lost and it looks like a "vet bring back".Quote:
Originally Posted by xSentinel
Just to make sure I understand you correctly ... so you're saying that if the barrel has a proof mark then it is a gun that was surplused by the Brits after WW2 and if it does not have a proof mark then it is a military gun either brought back by an American or British vet?
If that is what you are saying then I don't understand why someone would want to change the barrel to make one look like the other. Why would one be more valuable than the other? In my opinion it would seem that the collector value or "coolness" factor is that these guns were used in WW1 and WW2. How they got to the states afterward does not seem that important to me at least. Whether a vet brought it back in his bag in 1945 or the UK gov't sent them here and that same vet bought it in a gun store in 1946 it is still the same gun and was still physically used in 2 world wars.
To me at least having the original barrel is an indicator that the gun was more likely to have never been converted to .45 ACP which I think is a good thing, but only because that was the original configuration and as such is more original and more complete.
I think what Claven is saying is that ALL military weapons surplused from British service had to go through the commercial proof house, (they still do), before being sold off. My uneducated guess is the same as his. The vast majority of these pistols came to the USA via companies like Interarms in the 1950's. They were changed to .45ACP to make them more salable on the USA market because of the uncommon caliber. Simple as that.
Same thing happened with many .455 revolvers, they were altered to take .45 auto in clips to make them more attractive to the US market.
Right. That makes sense. But this one has a .455 barrel; not a .45 ACP. Unless I am mistaken Claven was saying that some people that had these with the proof stamped .455 barrels that indicate that they were likely bought on the commercial market and likely not brought home in a vets bag, changed the .455 barrel with the proof mark to a .455 that does not have a proof mark to make it look like it came home with a returning vet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
If so then I am just wondering why someone would do that? What is the benefit of changing the proof marked barrel to a non-proofed one? Especially when any .455 original barrel is so hard to find. It sounds like a very expensive switch and I see no gain.
Unless I am just not understanding his post. If so please forgive my ignorance.
Close. What I meant is that once a .455 barrel with a proof stamp was replaced by a .45ACP barrel with no british proof marks, the provenance of how the gun got to the US is lost if the original barrel doesn't stay with the gun. It could be a vet bring back, OR a commercially surplussed firearm.Quote:
Originally Posted by xSentinel
As Brian points out, many of the .455's in North America are guns that stayed in service until after 1945, then went to the surplus market and were sold commercially. A small number would have been acquired somehow by allied servicemen and came here in duffels, but given .455 ammo was not issued to US troops and would not often have been issued to Canadian troops, this would not have been too common and the chances of the owner later changing to .45ACP would have been pretty high.
I think a private officer purchase in original Colt high-polish blue with no markings or evidence of having been sold out of British service is probably a more collectible and less common gun than an issue piece, but the blue book disagrees with me and rates all the .455 variants at about the same price for equal condition - and it's a hefty price at that!
I would not be surprised if Interarms, CAI, or someone like that, put .45ACP barrels into them on purpose to make them more marketable in the 1950's and 1960's when guns were bought more for shooting than for collecting.
A friend of mine had one of these in New Brunswick. His had a sh*tty barrel and he couldn't change it without all these issues described. I wonder if corrosive ammo could have had a hand in the change of some of these...?
I think that's really likely given all WW1 ammo was basically corrosive. That being said, people who own these generally do not shoot them, so you are better off (from a value perspective) to leave the original .455 barrel in the gun, even with a poor bore, than to replace it with a non-.455 barrel.
Agreed on the value thing...
I agree. I can tell you from experience that trying to find a .455 barrel in decent shape is very difficult and expensive. I would keep the .455 barrel and shoot something else. So many of these guns have .45 ACP barrels in them that to find one with the correct barrel is pretty lucky; regardless of how it got there. As long as it is the correct barrel on the correct gun and would have been a match back in the day you are ahead of the game.
The barrel on any 1911 is so easy to change that to have any 1911 this old it is probably impossible to determine if any barrel that is currently in it is the one that shipped with the gun originally. Especially in a military issue gun since they could have been replaced multiple times during its service life. Even with rifles or other, if you have the right gun with the correct barrel for that year and type and it looks right and has similar wear and is a visual match, then that is pretty good. It might have been repaired at one time but hard to tell unless it is the type of gun where the serial number is stamped on multiple parts thus allowing you to match numbers and have an all matching gun. But not on these.
This is my British contract 455 auto. It was manufactured in 1919, has RAF markings and also has into service and out of service markings on the RH side for South Africa. It looks to have the RAF re-blued finish and still has the correct barrel and a correct but non matching 455 mag. The barrel is marked with the crossed pennants but isn't marked with either a 'W' or an 'E'.
I make brass for mine from 45 long colt shells(I am a self employed machinist) and use a Lee mold to suit a Ruger Old Army cap and ball revolver. The Lee mold is the closest I could find to the original bore size and weight that was suitable. The bore in the this 455 measures .4565" diameter and is in excellent condition.
Can I ask, what is the bore diameter in the examples that you guys have?
I haven't slugged it, but my barrel is marked .45.900", so I'm assuming the grooves are .459? I do know that .455 Webly Auto MkI ammo is loaded with bullets nominally .455" in diameter.