Strange Stamp

Hello all,

Obviously I'm new here so I hate to just come out and ask for help... but help. My uncle gave me an M1 carbine that belonged to my grandfather and he believes that it was acquired in 1967. Therefore it's been in the family since then. It is a National Postal Meter with an Underwood barrel. It appears to be a mix master, which is fine by me. However the stock has an odd stamp in the sling well, as shown in the pictures below. The buttplate is odd too and is the original that came with it.

The story behind this one is unique, and I can't confirm it because gramps died in 06, but here it goes. Gramps was a sergeant for the Detroit PD in 1967 (this I can confirm). The riots started on a Sunday (confirmed) and the federal government was closed so no backup was coming. I don't know if it was gramps personally, but police broke into the Light Guard Armory on 8 mile to "requisition" the long guns inside. This was gramp's gun. After the riots he was allowed to keep it if he donated $1 to the NRA. Gramps was not a shooter or tinkerer so it's a safe bet he never shot this or messed with it in 40 years. In fact, somewhere in my uncle's house is supposedly an original magazine for this gun with tracer rounds in it (maybe lost). He DID take it on the family camping trips for protection from wildlife, but that's it.

The stock is an M2 potbelly with no other markings and it looks varnished. The sling was a green post war. The handguard is a pretty nice Rock-Ola not varnished. The buttplate is rusty from the leaky oiler that leaked out years ago. I've spent hours searching the internet and I give up. Does anyone know this stamp or buttplate? Feel free to ask me any questions.

Thanks
Matt

And just like that the the mystery is solved. I have been trying to figure this out for MONTHS.

Member wtmr sent me an email saying it looked like a German eagle. I kinda thought the same thing but could not find anything that matched. Until just now. It's 1am here and I actually had to wake the wife to tell her (she was unimpressed).

Check this out. The stamp of the Bundesministerium der Verteidigung!Attachment 50221

Matt,

Welcome to the carbine forum.

Your grandfather's carbine has a lot of family history for you. Sounds like an arsenal rebuild sold to a PD. It was a favorite of many departments at that time. Getting it for $1 was nice. Seems with no other markings it has a replacement stock. I'm looking, I found that marking listed. German? Check out this site. It shows it down the page some.
ERMA Werke

Buttplate is a confusing pattern too.

Do you have other pictures? Receiver, bolt, trigger housing assembly, sights, stuff like that?

Jim

Sure. I'll take some more tomorrow. I just sent an email to bavarianM1carbines.com too. That's where the second image came from.

Buttplate; commercial aftermarket maybe? GK

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing your story!

Mattwood, welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing your carbine, and the story behind it. Does it have any other stamps or electro pencil marks on the barrel or other parts? wtmr does know his carbine's. Best Regards.....Frank

Mattwood,
I grew up in SE MI, Flat Rock.
Take a look at this older post.
I had attached some links about the riots.

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777

Cops and Robbers

Probably a 'Bavarian'. Look for 'last four' serial numbers on parts, like the bolt. These were used by German police after the war and were brought back in later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Mattwood,
I grew up in SE MI, Flat Rock.
Take a look at this older post.
I had attached some links about the riots.

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777

Cops and Robbers

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Thanks! I've got some info coming from bavarianm1carbines.com that I will share soon.

---------- Post added at 03:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

Probably a 'Bavarian'. Look for 'last four' serial numbers on parts, like the bolt. These were used by German police after the war and were brought back in later.

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That's what threw me off. There are no marks besides the original ones the would indicate it was in post war service by ANY agency, US or german.

Well you do know the stock has been replaced, possibly done at the Armory level with 'spare parts' stock.

Wondering if the barrel and receiver are original mates.
NPM used many barrels. If that U barrel is original to the NPM receiver it would have what we call the NPM punch mark near the P proof stamp on the barrel.

Note Pictures by fellow member mpd1978 showing the NPM punch mark (proof)....

Help needed for correct barrel for NPM

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Well you do know the stock has been replaced, possibly done at the Armory level with 'spare parts' stock.

Wondering if the barrel and receiver are original mates.
NPM used many barrels. If that U barrel is original to the NPM receiver it would have what we call the NPM punch mark near the P proof stamp on the barrel.

Note Pictures by fellow member mpd1978 showing the NPM punch mark (proof)....

Help needed for correct barrel for NPM

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777

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Well it has something. Looks more like a T to me. Maybe the P and the punch got smooshed together. What do you think?

Attachment 50570

Why does the sight have these weird tooling gouges? It says EU with the U being really faint.

Attachment 50571

The trigger group says SG. There a "No" on the slide. The rear sight is post war. Most of these parts I know are post war mixes. I was mistaken on the handguard, it's a Q-RMC.

Attachment 50574Attachment 50573Attachment 50572

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mattwood440

Well it has something. Looks more like a T to me. Maybe the P and the punch got smooshed together. What do you think?

Attachment 50570

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Looks like a "P" to me, but your "P" has serifs. Did Underwood use serifs? I don't know, but all my Underwood examples wear non-serif P's. I think that sometimes fonts changed during production (size for sure but I don't know about type). Hopefully somebody who really knows their Underwood proofs will add

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrossedCannons

Looks like a "P" to me, but your "P" has serifs. Did Underwood use serifs? I don't know, but all my Underwood examples wear non-serif P's. I think that sometimes fonts changed during production (size for sure but I don't know about type). Hopefully somebody who really knows their Underwood proofs will add

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I see it. Good catch!

In that case only the stock came from a Bavarian.

Quick update. I've been corresponding with Jim from Bavarianm1carbines.com for about a week and here's what we have so far.

1. The internals are an early, probably arsenal rebuild. It's possible it was rebuilt in the US or it may have been rebuilt in a county outside Germany who was not required to restamp, like Belgium.

2. The stock is made from European wood and was varnished from the factory. These stocks appeared after 1957. The stock has the Bundewehr mark meaning it should have been in use by the German national security forces, but it has no stamps indicating that it was. The whole carbine may have been exported between 1957 and 1968, before the import marking requirements.

3. The carbine was never used by the National Guard because the stock would not have passed specs due to the varnish.

4. The stocks might have been exported alone, which would explain the lack of numbers, then put on carbines in the US by other firms, like sporting goods stores. Jim is looking into this.

5. Gramps owned this carbine when he worked at the B and E division of the Detroit PD from 1966-1970. He wrote this on the sling.

6. It's possible he acquired it before the riots, or through the police when they requisitioned carbines from sporting goods stores during the riots (confirmed that they DID do this) and then he bought it. It never belonged to the DPD.

Overall a pretty cool story. I will update again when I have more solid information soon. We are still confused by the buttplate.

Sorry for the late update.

I made a mistake, the stock is Walnut which is odd because it definitely has the characteristic varnish of a bavarian stock, not to mention the Bundeswehr mark. Neither Jim Mock or Larry Ruth have ever seen the buttplate before.

Jim wasn't able to come up with anything about the stock other than the fact that it was added sometime between 1955 and 1967, which would be between the foundation of the Bundeswehr and when my grandfather worked Detroit B and E. I also have the mags which are loaded with ammo headstamped 59-61 which would support the fact that he acquired the M1 during that date range. I guarantee he did not change the stock.

So, to make a long story short, due to the stock change and lack of markings we will never know who rebuilt it. And the stock is REALLY unique.

Interesting, thanks for the update.