Winchester Blue Sky import

I rarely post on this forum, I'm a newbie with this type. I'm pretty heavily involved on the bolt action forums.

I have a few commercial rifles I've put up for trade and I've been offered an M1 that has a Winchester receiver and barrel and mostly Winchester parts. I do not yet know the condition of the rifle or if it has an original stock or Korean stock. I have no experience with these but would like to add one to my collection of representative rifles of WWI and WWII.

I've seen it said that Blue Sky is one of the least desirable import marks. Is that because most are worn out or is it that the worn out ones are less desirable or a nice Blue Sky is the same as any other nice import?

I've also read that Blue Sky damaged the barrels when they stamped them. Seems unlikely to me but as I said, I don't know much of anything about these.

My end of the deal is a $900 rifle. I'm thinking it would have to be a pretty nice M1 (import marked) to match that even up

I'm not a collector so to speak, I don't worry too much about all matching, etc, I just want a nice representative example. I have a lot of bolt actions but not many semi's. I asked him for photos so hopefully I'll have some reference to go by soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I have no experience with these but would like to add one to my collection of representative rifles of WWI and WWII.


I've also read that Blue Sky damaged the barrels when they stamped them. Seems unlikely to me but as I said, I don't know much of anything about these.

---

I'm pretty sure unless you are speaking aesthetically the Blue Skys will not be representative of WWII M1. I'm not sure if you are talking about M1 Garands or carbines, but I know that there are some examples of import marked M1 carbine barrels where the mark did damage the barrel.

Without pictures or very good descriptions of the rifle it is hard to tell you what you are asking about. For an M1 Garand or carbine I think $900 is a little steep, but not at all the highest it could be.

A Blue Sky selling on GB now would go for about $ 750. Plus shipping and FFL fee. so you are looking a $ 810.00 cost to get it to you. Winchester, well add $ 50.00 more for the name, so now you are at $ 860.
What you will get is a Korean War rebuilt carbine with a 50/50 chance, Blue Sky refinished the complete gun with light gray Parkerizing. There are some Winchester serial number more desirable than others. So let us know the first four number of it. To restore a Blue Sky to WWII look add $1K or more.

It is a carbine. So far about all I know is it supposedly was made 43-44 time frame. As for looking exactly like a WWII rifle, I don't need to go that far. I don't have the budget to go that far. I asked for pics, haven't gotten them yet. If I can hold it and show the differences, that's good enough for my purposes.

How can you tell if the import mark damaged the barrel? Shooting it would be too late to find out.

As far as I understand you should be able to see a bulge on the inside although it will be very subtle. It wouldn't be so bad as to be un-shootable, but it would effect accuracy a lot. That is what I understand anyway. You should be able to google it and find some info about it. I know I've see threads about them on other boards and maybe this one as well.

It's not like there is a shortage of carbines without import markings; DCM & CMP have sold many, many of them, & they are out there.

Most Blue Sky carbines were sold or lent by the US to S Korea. The Korean Army used them hard, & most were rebuilt multiple times. A Korean repark is not durable; you can permanently mark the surface with your fingernail. (At least, I did.) When Korean Army armorers ran out of spare parts, they repaired broken parts as best they could. For example, I have seen broken bolt lugs that were welded back on the bolt, a dangerous practice that you would never see a USGI armorer do.

Doesn't seem worth while paying top dollar for a questionable gun that you're not able to evaluate.

Neal

I would be able to see it before making the trade but it looks like I scared the guy off with my questions and photo request. He never responded. I'll give him a few more days before giving up on it but thanks for all the advice. If I get photos, I'll let you guys know.

Start going to gun shows early and watch for guys coming in with carbines to sell. You honestly never know what you may find. Vets are passing on every day and often the families just want to get rid of their stuff. Of course, if you don't know what you're looking at, you could make a $750 mistake. It would help if you could go with somebody who knows carbines. Or, you could simply go around the show and see what's available and talk to the sellers about them. Unfortunately, many sellers don't know any more than you, and others will try to sell you a dog. Even though carbines are always in demand, with the economy we now endure, there are bargains to be had.

I can't afford to buy one, that's the problem. I have a couple of commercial rifles that are worth as much as a mixmaster carbine in good shape and that's what I'm trying to do, trade. I've had offers but they all seem to be bad examples.

As Inland said, Go to any place where they sell guns and LOOK! See what the market is as with any thing else. As with any rifle, the more you know about them , the better chance you have getting a good deal. Wether buying or tradeing. Good luck. GK

I do go to gun shows and look. They all seem to be in the $900+ range and I can't afford that. I unfortunately don't have any friends other than you guys that I could go with or ask. I seem to be alone in my insanity locally.

The Winchester guy never got back to me but I received a second offer this afternoon, with pics. The rifle I'm offering as a trade is a new in the box Marlin 1895 Cowboy in 45-70. They are currently going for around $900 but I don't have that much in it. The person making the offer is within easy half way distance driving time:

M1 Carbine Inland manufacture.
100 rounds of Remington 110grn ammo. 50FMJ and 50SP.
1 sling and oiler .
1 15rnd USGI mag.
1 30rnd mag.
3 stripper clips w/spoon

Described as:

Approximately 70% original finish no pitting or rust. Bore is clean, when you put in a .308 bullet it does not go more than two thirds down. it is 5.5 million range that would put it in 1944 production. It is in post WWII configuration all parts appear to be US G.I.overall condition of the rifle is good the two biggest detractors of the rifle would be it has a Blue Skies import stamp on the left side of the barrel and a thin crack running several inches on the right side of the stock.

Crack appears to be on the right side just in front of the magazine. Stock looks to have a US ordnance stamp. From the photos, finish looks more like 50% to me but I'm not admitting to being a great judge of that.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3E64_zps-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...CA60_zps-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...88AB_zps-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2D1D_zps-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...FE29_zps-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1B38_zps-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3F28_zps-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1201_zps-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9FAC_zps-1.jpg

Some people won;t like that import stamp, but honestly, it doesn't look that terrible to me. The stock is a nice early one, and I think that crack could be easily glued to look invisible. Ask for a 3 day mutual inspection, and when you get the carbine slug the bore looking for a tight spot under the roll stamp. If the slug pushes through with no resistance, it should be fine IMHO.

Here's a Comp:

M1 Carbine .30 US Military Saginaw SG and Q-RMC : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com

Welcome to the forum! I think you did well. Marlin Cowboy 45-70s are a niche market. When SASS decrease in popularity (as it is already. I started in SASS in 1994. It was at it's zenith in about 2004, but has been decreasing in popularity ever since), the Marlin will tank in value. The USGI carbine are gaining value 70 years later! Besides, the ammo, mags, sling and oiler are worth $100 if you bought them seperate.

He sent me a further photo with a straight edge on the outside of the barrel and it isn't showing a depression.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d6c53c71-1.jpg

Barrel appears to be 9-44.

I'm asking how it shoots.

Painter, the comp you listed looks nicer but the guy says the bore is shot out. Are 308 bullets the same diameter as the 30 carbine that it can be judged by that test?

I looked up the bullet sizes and they appear to be the same so it doesn't appear the barrel is shot out.

Well, maybe it is not shot out. When the muzzles got worn, some were counter-bored. You could ask the seller for a better picture of the muzzle from an angle to the front. The one you posted is probably a ME of 2-3.

Sorry, This one doesn't appear to be shot out by the bullet test. The comparable M1 on gunbroker is the one that was shot out. The seller said the bullet went all the way in and was a bit loose.

So the big question is, would this be a good trade for my 1895 Marlin. He says he never shot it but says I can inspect it thoroughly before making the trade. The crack I can fix, done that before. I just don't want to trade under what my rifle is worth, at least not significantly under. If I'm reading you guys right, so far the consensus seems to be this would be a good trade? The only accessory I have for an M1 right now is the canvas bag. I like that this one has most of it's accessories.

This is my Inland for comparison. Ye Olde Gun Porn (Blog) I bought it about 3 months ago for $650. The I-cutout stocks seem to be a little rarer. If you are doing a straight trade it may be worth your while, as the carbine will increase in value over time, but if you are paying $900 cash I'd try to get it to come down a little. The rifle in the pictures looks to have little finish left. There are certainly better ones to be had but it does look like a serviceable shooter.

If your worried about the import marking damaging the barrel get yourself a pair of calipers and measure the OD around the stamp to see if it's egged or just look down the bore after a good cleaning. If theres any damage you'll see it right off. A straight edge is a precision tool and with me being a Millwright and all I couldn't help but laugh at the photo of the well used drift punch laying on the barrel. Some straight edge.:rofl:

That blue sky's stock may be worth more than the action :)

Being an I cut high wood stock that has not been cut down to low wood increases the value of the Inland quite a bit. Even with the crack the stock has good value. Very few Blue Sky stamped barrels have any distortion from the stamp. If you were to fix the crack in the stock you can sell the stock for a lot and have enough to get the correct one for your serial number and have some money left over.

I made the trade this afternoon. No surprises from the photos other than the stock has more than one crack. All are minor and easily repaired. The action works nice the bore is shiny and crisp, no indentations or bends that I can detect from the import stamp. I did my own bullet test to be sure and it looks better than the photo showed so probably in the 1.5-2 range. He took it apart for me and showed me the interior, no rust or pitting anywhere. Finish is uniform throughout. I'll have to research to see if all the parts are US or not but it will serve my purposes nicely in any case. One thing I don't like is the cross grain sanding. I'll probably work that out of it. Looks like they sanded a rack number off of it.

I can't believe how tiny and light this thing is. I've looked at them in the past but never actually picked one up that I recall.

Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. It's one less rifle I have to seek out. It's not perfect but I wasn't looking for perfect.

Anyone else wondering what the internals are?

While looking at the pic of the crack (blown up) It may be cracked along the bottom -outer right edge. Could just be a scratch though... view gets fuzzy blown up.

Take a M2 30.06 rd, I use one as a poor mans muzzle gage.

To be honest, I'd try to get him to toss $100~ back your way.
But negotiate that in person. Hand cycle the action. If it feels good grab it.

That Inland Type I Hi-Wood stock.... repaired and or refinished has enough value to sell outright or trade for a nice Inland Type III lo-wood that you'd need.

Good Luck,
Charlie-Painter777

1 minute late :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vintage hunter

A straight edge is a precision tool

---

Agreed, a punch isn't a straight edge.

The second crack is along the bottom outer right edge.

Bayonet lug - "SI" - Inland
Rear sight - "H" in a shield - Rock Ola
Stock marked with an ordnance bomb and an IO in the stock cut out. Stamped MRC (Mount Rainier Ordnance Depot Rebuild mark) on the side of the pistol grip, large ordnance stamp on the stock that is sanded pretty heavily - Inland
Hammer - "LT-Q" - Quality Hardware
Trigger Housing - "NL-Q" - Quality Hardware
Slide "PI" (underlined) - Inland
Magazine catch - EP-Q - Quality Hardware
Safety - "M" in a horseshoe (circle) - Postwar?
Trigger - "BOE" - Could be "BOB" no listing for triggers under either but Quallity Hardware for sears
Bolt - "AI" - Inland
Recoil plate - "W" -Winchester
Handguard - "W" - Winchester
15 round magazine - "KSG" - Saganaw Steering Division
30 round magazine - "MADE IN USA" post war commercial?

That's as far as I'm willing to take it apart for now.

So it appears to my untrained eye that all but the 30 round magazine are US GI at least. Mixmaster though. Sling is not WWII either.

I guess I should mention that the finish is a lot nicer than the photographs show. The stock is a lot darker also. I guess the fellows flash washed everything out.

Congrats, I think you did OK. A Marlin 45-70 Cowboy will not hold value even as much as a 45-70 Guide Gun. Your carbine is a REAL piece of history. Even being a rebuild, it is still as issued for Korea or Vietnam. 50 years from now which would be more valuable to your kids or grand kids? The carbine. I love the carbine since I grew up hearing how my dad carried an Inland Carbine on Iwo Jima, and my Uncles carried them also as Marines in the pacific. My Cousin (a Postal Inspector) had a DCM carbine in the 60s, and it was the first centerfire rife I ever fired.

PS: I am partial to Winchesters....That's what I have. I figure they have been making rifles since 1860 (154 years ago), so they should know what they are doing!

is made by Hemphill and isn't any specific company. They were generic and used on Winchesters a lot and most other brands.

Depending on milled or pressed, I have seen Hemphill sights on Winchester, Rock-Ola, IBM, and Std Products. Were others given sights during shortages, who knows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Trigger - "BOE" - Could be "BOB"

---

Might the Trigger be marked PDB?
Any markings on the Frt sight?
Markings on oiler?

I've seen KSG mags sell fairly High.
Congrats, Hope you enjoy it.
Any Pictures Coming ........ ?

Thx for letting us be part of the deal..... :cheers:

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777

I'm pretty sure the trigger is BOE or maybe BOB I looked it over pretty well when I found it didn't match anything on the site I was checking. It is also possible I was looking at the sear, not the trigger.

No markings on the oiler so I'm guessing a repro but I don't know.

There is an "N" on the sight blade but I see nothing on the sight itself.

You want MORE photos? I haven't taken any yet but I'll work on that. I was busy showing it off to some friends today.

Thanks for being part of the deal. I really like it, a lot more than I thought I would. Just something about it when you hold it and look at it. I have a lot of historical pieces that I like including a beat to crap, functional but I'm not going to shoot it Chinese type 88 Hanyang, but this just has a "cool" factor.

But this is probably it for me. I can't afford these and I need a Garand next.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Safety - "M" in a horseshoe (circle) - Postwar?

---

Here's a link that should help on your safety question:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=5777

:cheers: - Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by USGI

Here's a link that should help on your safety question:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=5777

:cheers: - Bob

---

It looks similar to that but not exact. Probably the same company. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 PM ----------

Here are some photos along with my yard sale bag pickup:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fbfa6c6a-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...29cfeecf-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7fed55f9-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3c78e8cd-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3ad111cb-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aaec357f-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

It looks similar to that but not exact. Probably the same company.

---

The ones I have vary quite a bit. That N marked sight was made by Niedner Rifle Co. and was used on several makes of carbines - some had additional markings. That bag looks like one of the ones that was extended - nice find. - Bob

Was the zipper case included? That would have sweetened the deal.

Here are a few different flip safeties.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...parts012-1.jpg

The safety on the lower right is the one that I have.

The bag did not come with the deal. I bought it at a yard sale two summers ago for something like $10. It is an extended one but no one could tell me why it was extended. I thought about selling it and had a few offers for it but I'm glad I kept it. The rifle fits in it nice but the tip is a couple inches too long. It's a Tweedies 1943. I find the ink written name a bit distracting but other guys seem to like it. Wouldn't have any idea how to get it off anyway so I suppose it stays.

$10 was a nice find, even with the writing on it. If you have a Garand, try putting it in the case.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Garands1-1.jpg

I don't have a Garand but I measured it when I got it and it is just a weird length. Couple inches longer than a carbine, couple inches shorter than a Garand.

When I made some inquiries, someone said it might be for a grenade launcher attachment. But they could offer no specifics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phillydude

That blue sky's stock may be worth more than the action :)

---

You got that right. And forget about the Blue Sky mark - its easy to see that its not one of those that were damaging. In order for the barrel to be bulged on the inside, it must be dented on the outside. Its easy to spot the few that were really seriously 'over struck'. As far as I can tell, it looks like an original Inland. At 5.5, the adjustable sight and round bolt probably came on it depending on markings. The sight should be 'H.I.' The bolt could have several versions of 'OI' or 'AI'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by INLAND44

As far as I can tell, it looks like an original Inland. At 5.5, the adjustable sight and round bolt probably came on it depending on markings. The sight should be 'H.I.' The bolt could have several versions of 'OI' or 'AI'.

---

What does that mean? The small internal parts are original or replacement? 5.5 is the upgrade? Is the bayonet lug original or part of the upgrade? Date wise it's late enough to have the bayonet lug but most seem to think these were all upgrades.

I have heard that some bags were extended by riggers for use with carbines with the cone flash hiders on them.

Anyway, I think you did very well. Doesn't the little carbine feel better to hold than a modern made almost copy of an 1895 Marlin 45-70? After all, original Marlin 1895s had a square, flush bolt like the 1888s, 1889s, and 1894s... The modern one is at best a replica! With the Carbine, it was a real warrior's weapon. If it could tell a story.... Omaha Beach, Bastogne, Remagen, Hertigen Forrest, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Kwajalein, Chosin Reservoir, Pork Chop Hill, Inchon, Mekong Delta, Central Highlands, Hue... The possibilities are endless.

The Type III bayonet lug band is certainly an upgrade, as a 5.5 Winchester would have had a Type 1B band, or maybe a type II. The round bolt and Type V slide are upgrades from Inland, and I think 5.5 is too soon for an adjustable, though my 5.7 Winchester has an original Type III adjustable sight.

Just to remind everyone, this is an Inland rifle, not a Winchester. The Winchester deal fell through.

That being said, is the bayonet lug on this rifle original? It is an Inland lug and it was produced in in or after September of 1944 when several sources I've read said the lugs would have been standard after June of 1944. I realize this minimizes the chance the rifle would have been used in combat in WWII and that isn't really a concern for me. I'm just wondering about the originality and again that isn't critical as I know the stock would not be this type on this late of production. I'm trying to research the terms you guys are throwing around like 5.5 and not having a lot of luck figuring it out.

Do those small parts which are not Inland belong to is as produced or are they replacements?

And yes, I do appreciate this a lot more than the 1895 which I traded for it. That rifle just never quite felt "right" and I wasn't ever sure why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Just to remind everyone, this is an Inland rifle, not a Winchester. The Winchester deal fell through.

That being said, is the bayonet lug on this rifle original? It is an Inland lug and it was produced in in or after September of 1944 when several sources I've read said the lugs would have been standard after June of 1944. I realize this minimizes the chance the rifle would have been used in combat in WWII and that isn't really a concern for me. I'm just wondering about the originality and again that isn't critical as I know the stock would not be this type on this late of production. I'm trying to research the terms you guys are throwing around like 5.5 and not having a lot of luck figuring it out.

Do those small parts which are not Inland belong to is as produced or are they replacements?

And yes, I do appreciate this a lot more than the 1895 which I traded for it. That rifle just never quite felt "right" and I wasn't ever sure why.

---

Inland started using the type III bayonet band in very late 1944 around the 6.28 range give or take a little. It was in mixed use at first and then sole use in the early 6.3 range. Is the barrel date on the Inland you're looking at 9-44? BTW, I really like the later made M1 carbines even though many of them never made it into combat. That simply means they're in far better shape and could retain more of their original parts. Hope this helps and Good Luck with your purchase.

Barrel date is 9-44. Serial number is 5.5 (so that's what that meant). So that makes it too early for the bayonet lug I guess.