Refinishing 91/30 stock

I've come to acquire a 1936 Tula 91/30 that has not been refurbished. There are no refurb marks on it anywhere, and judging by the patina, wear of finish, and condition of the stock, it seems to be the case. It's an older import, with the CAI stamp toward the muzzle of the barrel.

I've managed to clean the stock up and get all the grease and grime out of the wood. If it had the red-tinted varnish on it when it was imported, it's been long gone. It looks like it had more of an oil-based finish, but it's hard to tell with as much grime that was on/in it.

I'm wanting to reach out for some expertise on how to restore the finish the closest possible to what they would have done in '36. Did they use an oil-based finish like BLO or something else?

That's a question it seems no one can answer to anyone else's satisfaction. Most people are convinced that the crappy shellac is what they applied to all their rifles as the finish of choice. I personally believe that the shellac was applied only at refrubishment and was intended as a protection during long term storage and never expected to hold up during actual use. This thought seems to be supported by the little evidence we have that we can see. Finnish rifles, even in original stocks do not have a trace of shellac on them. All are oil finished. As all were captured or aquired prior to or during the early phases of WWII, it indicates to me at leas that they did not have the shellac prior to 1943. My "For Collectors Only" book also mentions an oil finish on the stocks.

Now you could argue that the Finns simply removed all the shellac or that is simply came off during use and they never re=applied it. It gets hard to argue when 98% of all rifles you see these days are covered in that red shellac.

That your rifle has no indications of a refurb and is missing the shellac also seems to support that it was not an original finish, what you have now is the original finish.

If it were mine, I most certainly would not cover it in shellac when it now has none.

Based on what I'm seeing, I agree with you on the finish. My brother has a refurb with the shellac on it and it's not what I'd call a "good" finish whatsoever. Maybe if it's maintained and reapplied on a regular basis.

I used no stripper whatsoever on this thing and never found any indication of a finish other than an oil-based one. Being new to the Mosin Nagant world, I wanted to make sure before I started applying. I know it's a common gun and all, but I don't want to ruin the value it has, be it historical or monetary, as I bring it back to life a bit.

Thanks for the input!!

If it really is an unrefurbished stock, you shouldn't do anything to it. Many people will pay very good money for non-refurbished Russian stocks. They are not common.

Can you post some good photos if it?

It's too late not to clean/strip it, as that's already done. Part of the reason I cleaned/stripped it was due to some cracks that needed repaired. There are several that had already been repaired (had some kind of black adhesive used for that, but it looks like someone did a good solid job of it). It also has an "A" that someone has carved into it.

What I did NOT do was take sandpaper or abrasives to it to clean it up. After having redone a stock on an Enfield previously, I did enough research on that one to know better to sand a milsurp stock.

Here are some pics...

[IMG]http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/...psa2b66c88.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2bd1e9f2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/...psb37f6b27.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4dd1effb.jpg[/IMG]

Thanks for posting some photos. Looks like a neat old rifle.

Please don't judge all shellac finishes on the post war Russian refurbs. These are not representative of a good shellac finish. When shellac is applied to bare wood, it is very durable and looks more like a very old (hardened) oil finish. The shellac is cut with alcohol and it seeps into the wood grain much like an oil finish. I believe that shellac was the original finish on these rifles, but it's different than the thicker, sloppy post war jobs where it seems very little preparation was done to keep the shellac from flaking off.

Since it's already stripped, you could use a modern shellac (tinted or not) or if you are going for a certain color, use a stain and then a coat or two of amber shellac. Just make sure you cut the shellac with de-natured alcohol unless, of course, you are going for that thick post war look. :)

I have no doubt that done right the shellac is a good finish. I'm like you, I think they just slathered it on during refurb.

I opted to go with a BLO rub. So far it's looking pretty good. A tad darker than what was on it, but it's making the cartouche and imperfections pop out well.

What sucks is some of the detail of the cartouche has diminished while I was cleaning. Not much, the fletching on the arrow more than anything. However, I can see the date stamp under the star better now.

The finished product...

[IMG]http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5ca4b776.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/...ps61e97bba.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3855ae86.jpg[/IMG]

Looks well cleaned, but it appears 'naked' to me. If you are going for the 'original' look, it needs to have more sheen, either from an oil finish or shellac. The wood looks like it has very nice color and I would suspect with a coat or two of a 50/50 mixture of amber shellac and DNA, the rifle would look more original. Maybe just some additional coats of BLO? I've never used BLO, so I don't know if it gets more glossy with multiple coats.

Here are some photos a a 1938 Izhevsk for reference...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...68f9a617-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0ec2c587-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...487ddf4a-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b68fe6ab-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...24c0d053-1.jpg

You put enough coats of BLO on it and it will look like the shellac. I've managed it with two rifles. I can't tell you how many coats it was but I kept it beside my chair and rubbed a coat on every night while I watched TV until it hardened and shined. I'd guess somewhere around 30 coats. If it gets scratched, just put another coat on.

Hey, new member here but I kinda have become a Mosin Superfreak over the last 6 months. I would not touch it, and definitely not apply some modern Shellac. From the limited pictures I see- you may have a true "matching number" non-refurb. The buttplate and barrel serials are complete and look like the correct matching fonts. If the bolt and mag look the same you have a real gem. Would be a shame to devalue it with restoration not preservation.

I'm giving it a few days to cure up with what I've got on it before I start putting more on. My plan is to put a few more coats of BLO on with longer between them.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03/large-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03/large-2.jpg
[img]hthttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03/large-3.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03/large-3.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03/large-4.jpg

This a typical refurb, stripped of the peeling shellac, bleached, stained with dye and oil-finished to simulate a red shellac-like finish. The wood was not sanded.

Below is what the 'original' finish looked like.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03/large-5.jpg

YMMV. Decide what you want and then do it. Best wishes. Dave

Looks awesome Dave! That's an oil rub? What kind of oil did you use?

Birchwood Casey Tru-oil, a kind of varhish which is very durable and resistant to bore cleaner. This rifle was finished with several coats, applied with 0000 steel wool, wiped with clean rag immediately after application and allowed to dry completely between coats. You could use Tung Oil to achieve similar results. Boiled Linseed Oil does not build as quickly and is not as durable when completed.

30 coats!! Wow. I suppose it's easy to apply? I guess if I was the OP, I'd keep with the same finish. There might be problems with compatibility with other types.

OK. I'm used to the more amber look that Tru-Oil gives. I used it on a stock I reworked for my boys' 22. Good stuff and leaves a nice finish on it, for sure.

I'm also kicking around gun wax over the BLO for a little more luster once I get the BLO to where it's good to go. From what I understand, I could throw the TO on top of the BLO, I would just have to make sure and give the BLO time to cure properly.

If I do a refurb on a refurbed one at some point, I might get with you on the die you used if you don't mind. Not sure what my next "project" will be, but another Mosin is on the radar at some point, be it a 91/30, M44, or maybe even a T53.

You don't need 30 coats to get a "shine" with BLO. Half a dozen or so will get a nice finish that has a bit of a sheen to it once rubbed down and polished. This is the level I go to get most of my firearms. I just went further with the two 91/30's partly to see if it could be done and the wood on these doesn't take a shine as easily as the woods from most other nations.

I have to disagree there MC. Tru-oil looks pretty on a sporting rifle until you actually use the rifle at which point the high gloss top coat rubs right off. I could go on a rant but I'll just say Tru-oil is not an appropriate finish for any military stock.

IMO, if one is refinishing a 91/30 use shellac why? because the Russians used.... Shellac!! Or for a more subdued look "which I prefer" use BLO. Whatever one chooses remember the durability and longevity of the finish depends on wood preparation so do your best to remove as much Cosmoline as possible....

The only way to keep it as close to the original finish as possible is to leave it alone, if you want to refinish it, sell it to somebody that doesn't. Why turn a unique rifle into something worthless and run of the mill just like the rest?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheSovietSamurai

The only way to keep it as close to the original finish as possible is to leave it alone, if you want to refinish it, sell it to somebody that doesn't. Why turn a unique rifle into something worthless and run of the mill just like the rest?

---

Because the finish put on them for long term storage is not the original finish. The original finish is the finish applied when the rifle was made, that according to all sources I've seen is OIL. The shellac is a post war add on, is not durable and generally looks like crap from simply being jostled around in the storage cases. A finish which comes off from breathing on it or bumping it with your fingernail is not a good finish.

You can see in old photos that the "original" finish was not high gloss shellac. I agree with Aragorn it was oil of some sort.
A caveat to my post, If you want your rifle to look like it did when you picked it from the crate....Use shellac.

I also agree with TSS, I would have left the stock in question alone.

I considered it leaving alone, but had several cracks that you can't see needed secured so they didn't get worse. It also had grime that just came out and off just by handling. If I had to guess as to the "finish" on it when I got it, I would say it was a cosmoline rub. The pics of the butt were the cleanest spots, which is why I posted them. Forward of there was awful.

This wasn't a perfect condition weapon I opted to strip down and rework, it was bit of a fixer-upper I tried to keep as original as possible.

I also don't believe that shellac was used pre-war and during ww2 that's a post war thing. My M-44 is dated 1945 and has an oily finish like linseed or tung oil it's pretty beat up with a lot of gouges and deep scratches, no sign whatsoever of having any shellac put on it. All the rest of my Russian gun's are all refurbs with shellac.

quick question,, what's the difference in Linseed oil and Tung oil ?

Have a look at this, SVT. I think it'll cover what you're after as far as differences.

BLO vs Tung Oil

here is one that was properly redone , it is shellac, that stock would look great with amber shellac on it they did not start using red till ww2 era, When properly applied they look great. I sell them a lot on ebay like this. From a 1930 hex, the soviets have always used shellac. they have never used oil on their stocks , the fins did , but not the soviets , it was all they had during war and they stuck wit it to this day , they still shellac wood stocks on ak,rpk's,pkm's the soviets have always used shellac.I refinish wooden stocks for a living , all russian stocks were not captured by another country came shellaced with amber until ww2 then they switched to the red tinted.
When applied right shellac does not just scratch off, its how you prepare the wood. but after 75 or so yrs yes shellac may have peeled off or been removed , but they came from factories in russia in shellac.not oil. Production time would have took too long oil finishing nagant stocks they needed em in field right away when the nazi's invaded , all were done in shellac . Even before the war the soviets needed weapons , the only ones did not come shellaced were made in usa by westinghouse, finland , poland, Hungary . russia never used oil on wood rifle stocks and still doesnt.ak 74's with wooden stocks are shellaced when they leave russia to this day,only refurbed parts guns are not or synthetic stocked ones. you see a red ak74 its shellac.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mil-surp60

here is one that was properly redone , it is shellac, that stock would look great with amber shellac on it they did not start using red till ww2 era, When properly applied they look great. I sell them a lot on ebay like this. From a 1930 hex, the soviets have always used shellac. they have never used oil on their stocks , the fins did , but not the soviets , it was all they had during war and they stuck wit it to this day , they still shellac wood stocks on ak,rpk's,pkm's the soviets have always used shellac.I refinish wooden stocks for a living , all russian stocks were not captured by another country came shellaced with amber until ww2 then they switched to the red tinted.
When applied right shellac does not just scratch off, its how you prepare the wood. but after 75 or so yrs yes shellac may have peeled off or been removed , but they came from factories in russia in shellac.not oil.

---

From what research I've done before and after refinishing, it seems no one really knows what exact finishes they've used. The best I can find is that the shellac is the most predominant, but they also used a pine tar/pitch with shellac over it and linseed oil. About the closest "authority" I could find was where a worker at Tula responded back to someone inquiring stating both were used at different times.

I'm confident I have the right finish based on what was on it prior to my cleaning and refinishing it. There was no indication of shellac anywhere, even in the nooks and crannies. When I removed the metal and all, everything appeared to be an oil finish. Whether that was a refinish at some point (it wasn't a refurb, I do know that), I don't know. I'm confident what is on it now is what was on it prior to cleaning, though.

I have a feeling this is one of those questions that's probably lost to the ages as to exactly what was used, as anyone that actually built them have passed on by now. It's a shame.

As per "The MOsin-Nagant Rifle" by Terence W. Lapin, page 238: "The original treatment of Mosin-Nagant stocks appears to have been a basic military-type oil finish."

He also goes on to say that many of the carbine stocks were given a heavy coating of clear varnish. Arsenal-refinished imports have a clear lacquer rather than varnish.

Given that every stock I've worked on has been soaked to the core in oil underneath the lacquer, the lacquer finish is obviously not original to these rifles. In that every rifle I have that has not gone through refurbishment has an oil finish. I think it's safe to assume that these rifles got that crap put on during refurbishment. If you want to leave it on, that's fine. I've left it on most of mine but I have taken it off of two as I plan to use them and don't want the crap coming off on my car seats, etc.

If I get a refurb and decide to refinish, I'd likely put the shellac on it as that's what's "original" for the refurb. I've seen some nice looking ones done like that. Not sure how soon I'll have that kind of project, though. There's others on the list above another Mosin for now. :)

Don't forget about the black paint they slopped on along with the shellac during refub/storage.
I'm in the camp that is convinced they were oiled. All one has to do is look at war photos, they ain't glinting in the sun and also can you imagine how hard it would be to hold onto a wet muddy shellacked stock?

I want my rifles to look like they would have when they were used, not stored. Unless they are brand new and I only have one of them. I haven't removed the shellac from 4 that have it because I don't really plan to do anything with them other than store them. Perhaps I'll change my mind at some point.