Future Carbine Authentication

A slow day. Just throwing out an idea to get pro & con discussion. I think we are all concerned about put-together and/or 'corrected' carbines being hawked by unscrupulous parties somewhere down the road as valuable, as-issued factory originals, cheating the unaware, creating distrust in the hobby and perhaps diminishing the value of the true originals. Heck, we know it's going on more and more right now.

What do you think would be the possibility of a few knowledgeable and respected expert authentication firms or individuals like Ruth, Supica, Fjeistad (sp?), BrianQ and others marketing certification services providing a uniform professional assessment of a carbine (or any other collectible gun for that matter), for a reasonable fee, and including a written certification or opinion of its authenticity, with probable exceptions as applicable. This certification would follow the carbine and any piece without the certification would be purchased only on faith, and caveat emptor. For you lawyers (and 'sea lawyers') out there, I acknowledgre that my use of 'certification' and 'opinion ' may not be totally correct but you should get my intent.

We all know assembled carbines will fool a LOT of uneducated and inexperienced people, but I don't believe it is possible to assemble a carbine from parts and fool a truely knowledgable advanced collector (at least at this time). An authenticataion service may not stop the destuction of faith in the system that will eventually devalue the real thing but I think it might temper it a bit. In ten years I believe we will see five figure prices on truely original, as-issued carbines and that kind of money I beleive would warrant requiring and providing a dependable written certification. Any thoughts? ChipS

Good way to get sued by one who placed reliance on your expertise (and lose all your 5 figure carbine collection to boot) when it's learned later a piece you "authenticated" is fake.

60 minutes recently did a piece on Wolfgang Beltracchi who is apparently a really talented painter and whose pieces were "authenticated" as "the real thing" by those "in the Know". Buyers and sellers alike are suing appraisers who "misled" them. If you viewed the episode, fascinating story

Best art forger in history? - CBS News

Cross Cannons:

Good point. I do remember the art forger story. But is there not a way to legally disclaim an expert opinion as only an opinion and subject to amendment upon future discovery of additional facts? I know we are besieged by an army of lawyers taking every opportunity to profit shamelessly from any and every human imperfection, but would they not have to prove intent to deceive? If not, then how can any bonafide expert in any field provide any honest, educated opinion based upon the information available at the time and without fear of legal retribution if the opinion is not 100% correct in the future? I understand your concerns but it appears that auction houses and other appraisers have resolved this issue and I wonder why a carbine evaluator could not do the same thing. ChipS

We rely on Experts for their knowledge of specifics, and if relevent specs aren't known to them, perhaps they should have known?

Legal entanglement doesn't require fraud with its intent to deceive. Mere negligence (unintentional misrepresentation) is good enough if damages result from reliance there upon. And the opinion of your "expert" in a legal setting is readily countered by that of my "expert". All it takes is money.

We do have a relatively new Advisory Panel Review & Validation Service page.

What is the Advisory Panel Review Validation Service?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrossedCannons

We rely on Experts for their knowledge of specifics,

---

I respectfully disagree with this statement. I am not a lawyer but I have rendered expert opinion in civil trial proceedings. I deleted a rebuttal because this is not the place to argue points of law. We are here to exchange views concerning carbines and I value yours, and hopefully some others. Peace, Brother. ChipS

What's a Carbiine?

:confused:

Cheers,
Charlie-P777.... AKA: Wolfgang

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painter777

What's a Carbiine?

---

OK, you got me!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painter777

What's a Carbiine?

:confused:

Cheers,
Charlie-P777.... AKA: Wolfgang

---

It's the same thing as Deringer (as in Henry Deringer, Gunsmith) and Derringer (the name put on cheap copies of H. Deringer pistols). By adding the second letter you are not infringing on the original Trademark.:lol: I got my eye on you ChipS:rofl:

Al

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painter777

What's a Carbiine?

---

Could it be a Naval weapon? AYE AYE SIR!!:dunno::lol::lol:

---------- Post added at 09:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 AM ----------

Back to original thread: What would stop the faking of the certificates? Easily done on modern computors! GK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shadycon

Could it be a Naval weapon? AYE AYE SIR!!:dunno::lol::lol:

---------- Post added at 09:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 AM ----------

Back to original thread: What would stop the faking of the certificates? Easily done on modern computors! GK

---

Ba-da-bing!

You know what? When a knowledgeable, talented and experienced individual decides to step across to the 'Dark Side' and fake carbines or any other collectible thing, he will be successful, like that painter. Sometimes I think people do this mainly for the thrill of pulling the wool over the eyes of the 'experts'. The crude attempts we usually see, like the stock a few days ago, are unworthy of serious discussion. If there are people who can make a $100 bill that requires study by the Treasury Dep't. to determine if its counterfeit, you have to know that assembling and 'aging' a freaking M1 Carbine would be child's play. Think of the notorious guy from California who sold faked 1911s for years, some of which were bought by experienced collectors. Folks, I think 'the files are already corrupted' in the collectible gun business. I think it can only work against values if collectors themselves lose confidence in being able to authenticate guns on the spot in order to make a good buy.

You are proposing vetting an object that would make or break a sale. The process alone would be difficult as to be completely fair, the carbine would have to actually be sent to the evaluator before the sale would complete, few sellers would go for that. Also why even start this when a sizable portion of the collecting universe is actively building "corrected" carbines ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by INLAND44

Folks, I think 'the files are already corrupted' in the collectible gun business. I think it can only work against values if collectors themselves lose confidence in being able to authenticate guns on the spot in order to make a good buy.

---

This may be the answer. But if humpers can fool a Larry Ruth after close examination (which I don't believe they can) then how can any collector feel confident in authenticating a carbine 'on the spot'. BTW, I didn't say it but I would expect the actual carbine would be delivered to the appraiser for first hand inspection and high quality photographs taken to document what is being authenticated. I don't know but it seems the alternative is to do nothing, raising the price of the fakes and limiting the value of the treasures. Maybe there is no good answer to this but the purpose of my thread was to kick around some observations, opinions and alternative suggestions.

Also BTW, Charlie, I tried to correct the thread title but by the time old eyes noticed the blurry error the edit option was gone. My spelling and my eyesight don't seem to be improving with time anymore, dang it. ChipS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChipS

My spelling and my eyesight don't seem to be improving with time anymore, dang it. ChipS

---

Getting old are we, so am I but I still have a few years left!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

It was often hard enough 20 years ago, before the proliferation of "fake" parts, to authendicate the originality of a carbine. In another 20 years, I don't think they'll be able too.