Help With Lithgow SMLE

My LGS has a Lithgow 22 . I am looking for help determining if it is original. It is marked
on the side MA Lithgow SMLE III 1941. The top of the receiver is marked 22 No 2
The serial number has a C on top of it. The wood is marked SLAZ 1944 and on the bottom of the wood there is a B along with a 5S. The import marks are JJCO NY. The wood is perfect and the gun appears to be unfired. I think it is the wood that I am questioning. I am also looking to place a value on this rifle. Any help wood be appreciated .

Sounds like a typical No.2 MkIV, made from recaptured actions post war.
C prefix is correct, as to timber, should be coachwood, pic's would help.

Recaptured actions were converted? Wonder why they just didn't FTR them as .303's?

Without photos and the small amount of information, it's impossible to tell but by the description, I'd be very surprised if its not put together by jjco. Genuine rifles very rarely look so tidy as described.

The 22 No2 would be on the bolthead rather than the top of the receiver.

A lot of Lithgow No2's that I've seen only have the conversion marked on the buttstock, and nowhere on the action.

My Mistake, the 22 No 2 is stamped on the bolthead. The wood is natural and kinda red in color with no finish applied. The british crown over the cross flag with letters L and P is stamped on the rear of the barrel. The crown is also stamped on the wood. Im not sure if the dealer will allow me to take photo's. The JJCO NY is stamped in two different places on the right side of the receiver. The bottom of the trigger guard is stamped 3A

I wanted to now if anyone has an idea of value?

Can't value it until we know what it is mate. Could be genuine No2 MkIV or if could be built up by John Jovino. I wouldn't want the latter so values are miles apart in my view. Any markings on the butt? Perfect wood doesn't sound legitimate to me.

On the wood at the butt there is an S stamped

That really tells us nothing. If it is a largish S on the top side adjacent to the butt plate, it indicates short butt. I'd suggest jump on here or over on gunboards and do a search for No2 MkIV or Enfield 22 trainers and do some research. Know yourself what it is you are looking at rather than someone here giving you the wrong information from the scant detail provided. You'll be better equipped to make a decision.

I have learned some good info from other resources as well. I am still in the learning process. Trouble is even the seller really has no information either.

Of the 18000+ rifles returned to Australia from Singapore, 12000 were returned on the coastal freighter BURWAH, these firearms were extensively damaged, white anted and rusty as was expected after indifferent storing after firing, following the fall of Singapore.

A few thousand actions dated 1940-41 were scrubbed and refurbed as .22's, 7000 were earmarked for conversion to .22 Hornet and several hundred other makes were converted to .410, what was past it was junked.

All this was post war from 1946 to 1950, I'm sure I've posted the dates of these refurbs before.

Here is one snippet from the papers of the time.Attachment 51280

The IJA didn't use many then?

SMLE's was all they seemed to carry on "Spyforce".

That's interesting since the receiver on the this one is dated 1941

Given that Singapore surrendered in early 1942, that would put a limit on action date for the recaptures.

My No2 MkIV* is also a Lithgow 1941 action, 1949 conversion date on the butt, so most interesting.

Mine also, and shows the signs of a very hard life.Attachment 51288Attachment 51289

I have always believed that despite the numbers of rifles produced in the 40-41 timeframe, that they are almost as rare as the limited production years, due to the numbers lost in two different theatres of combat, and those subsequently modified as sub cal. or sporters.
Reading the War diaries of these units you can see that these year rifles were issued late and previous dated firearms returned to store, to see out the war as second line, giving them a higher survival rate than the early war years.

So muffer were the 8th Division mostly equipped with new SMLE's before they disembarked for Singapore or was it that a shipment arrived there and troops were issued these as they arrived to the front? From memory wasn't it a bit of a scattered force before it arrived?
I would think that if they were equipped with rifles fresh off the assembly line, the majority of 1941 actions would have been MkIII no star. My thoughts are that by the time they began assembling MkIII*s, it would have been too late for these to arrive in Singapore in time for the battle and final capitulation.
Having said that, I've found that 1941 actions serial numbered between B80000 and and C20000 are quite scarce and I've always felt that these were lost somewhere. I've been on the hunt for rifles in this range for some years and find myself constantly examining serial numbers for this reason.

Homer, i have 2 barrelled actions both in the B90000 range you can have for a modest fee :) they may have come to NZ.

Interesting mate. Shortly after I posted last night I checked an Australian used gun site and there was a B80000 1941 dated action advertised.

Seems they changed from the 1941 to the 1942 dated actions late 1942 & in the serial range C90000 a couple of years back there were a couple of rifles in a auction that wiere in the iirc C91000 range, the lower number had a '42 dated receiver & the higher number a '41 date, one had a mismatched bolt but amazingly the bolt had the concecutive number to the other rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 5thBatt

Seems they changed from the 1941 to the 1942 dated actions late 1942 & in the serial range C90000 a couple of years back there were a couple of rifles in a auction that wiere in the iirc C91000 range, the lower number had a '42 dated receiver & the higher number a '41 date, one had a mismatched bolt but amazingly the bolt had the concecutive number to the other rifle.

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Yep I'd agree with that mate although I would add that there was a period of overlap where 41 and 42 dated actions were being assembled simultaneously. I've seen more than a few 1941 actions with higher serial numbers than 1942 actions and this would be consistent with all years if production I would think. I'm sure that doesn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homer

So muffer were the 8th Division mostly equipped with new SMLE's before they disembarked for Singapore or was it that a shipment arrived there and troops were issued these as they arrived to the front? From memory wasn't it a bit of a scattered force before it arrived?
I would think that if they were equipped with rifles fresh off the assembly line, the majority of 1941 actions would have been MkIII no star. My thoughts are that by the time they began assembling MkIII*s, it would have been too late for these to arrive in Singapore in time for the battle and final capitulation.
Having said that, I've found that 1941 actions serial numbered between B80000 and and C20000 are quite scarce and I've always felt that these were lost somewhere. I've been on the hunt for rifles in this range for some years and find myself constantly examining serial numbers for this reason.

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My 1941 is B93090 and the barrel is dated 12/41

Without going back and reading Unit histories again, my recollections are that 2/18, 2/19 and 2/20 Bns. were short rifles during training, what they had was a mixture of Brit. and Oz, of early years. I would assume the same with other Units.
Rifle issue was taking place mid '41, these units having arrived at the start of the year.
Ammunition shortages for zeroing and practice with the new rifles was being complained about right up to the invasion by Japan.
I would expect that most of the new issued rifles would have been destined for the priority theatre, a large proportion then lost with the fiasco's in Greece and Crete.
Most of the actions returned post war were without bolts, soldiers removing and throwing them to ensure the firearm was inoperative, this helps explain the high percentage of mismatches amongst the '40-41's I have observed.

Just a bit of an idea of what this Division was suffering Ammunition wise.
Attachment 51298Attachment 51299

That's an interesting doc Muffer because when I was researching the Bren I came across a user handbook written in Japanese, presumably to cater for the quantity of Brens captured in Hong Kong and Malaya/Singapore. Another report said that there was 90 million rounds of .303 ball captured/lost at the fall of Singapore and much of this was lost as it was stored at the large Base Ammunition Depot in Johore. Unfortunately, Johore is over the causeway, to the North of Singapore! Another good idea but flawed practice as the enemy invaded from the North!

Worth remembering that a million rounds will fit snugly in the rear of a Bedford lorry. Mind you, if you ain't got any Bedfords to move it your way........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 5thBatt

Seems they changed from the 1941 to the 1942 dated actions late 1942 & in the serial range C90000 a couple of years back there were a couple of rifles in a auction that wiere in the iirc C91000 range, the lower number had a '42 dated receiver & the higher number a '41 date, one had a mismatched bolt but amazingly the bolt had the concecutive number to the other rifle.

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Have seen a similar thing before when a group of rifles that had been together were sold. The seller had picked them up and didn't pay attention to the bolt numbers... I wonder if that was the case here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Son

Have seen a similar thing before when a group of rifles that had been together were sold. The seller had picked them up and didn't pay attention to the bolt numbers... I wonder if that was the case here?

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Brad, found this post from 2010, my memory was close but not accurate. Interesting snippet

"from the auction just held in NZ
Lot 1008 1942 Lithgow s/n C99247
Lot 1012 1941 Lithgow s/n C99537
Yes the lower s/n rifle has the later date but the interesting bit is
Rifle C99537 was all matching but C99247 had a mismatched bolt numbered C99538
I checked, they were from different vender's. "

I see the 1905 BSA MkIII that was a barreled action back then has just resurfaced on TradeMe
1905 Lee Enfield No 1 Mk III | Trade Me