Check out this trials sniper on gun auction.I think this one will go for big dollars.
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/127170...-rifle-c-and-r
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Check out this trials sniper on gun auction.I think this one will go for big dollars.
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/127170...-rifle-c-and-r
And if it wasn't going to, it will now!
Gotta love those "Maltby" 1933 Enfields.
Might be fun to pick apart, but it'll probably end up being "unfun" expensive.
Well, it is nice to look at. Even though it is definitely going to be way out of my price range.....
Saved auction information and pics for posterity and for future research by members ... ;)
Quote:
Guns For Sale - Rare Holland & Holland Enfield -- No4 Mk1 .303 British Bolt Action Sniper Rifle C&R
Auction Closed ... SOLD with HIGH BID: $6,603.90 U.S.
LSB#: 140130RM21
Make: Enfield, Maltby Factory (see: http://www.enfieldcollector.com/serials.html)
Model: No4 MkI
Serial Number: A1038
Year of Manufacture: 1939-1943
Caliber: .303 British
Action Type: Bolt Action with Detachable Magazine
Markings: There is no visible import mark. The left side of the stock collar is marked “G crown R / ENFIELD / ENGLAND / No 4 Mk1 / A 1038 / F.T.R. (Firearm, Through Repair) / T R (the final inspection proof prior to being upgraded by Holland & Holland)”. The front left of the receiver is marked with a “crown / BNP” proof. The top rear of the receiver is marked with an “H”, “crowned” stampings as well as several over stamped marks. The rear barrel band is marked “N arrow 79”; the front band is marked “arrow N 79”. The top of the front sight is marked “F V / 045”. The underside of the bottom nose cap is marked with faint lettering that ends in “NS”. The rear of the bolt handle is marked with the serial number and a partial stamping. The underside of the bolt knob is marked with a “crown / BNP” proof. The bolt body has tool marks on it. The cocking piece is marked with two unknown stampings. The safety is marked with an “arrow”. The bottom of the grip is marked “S.L / arrow / inverted V / crown”, “K” and with faded stampings. The top of the grip is marked with what appears to be “1-5-6-8 / 17211”.The left edge of the stock is marked “0” next to the receiver. The underside of the forearm is marked “A 1038” and “crown / 33”. The screw for the center swivel is marked with an “arrow”. The magazine follower is marked “M/56”; the base is marked with the serial number.
Barrel Length: Approximately 25 ¼”
Sights / Optics: The front sight is a blade set between two protective ears. The rear sight is a flip up sight ladder marked from “2 - 13”. There is no rear sight when the ladder is down due to the scope. The left side of the receiver has two threaded holes for accepting the scope base that is attached to the scope. The scope is a fixed 3 power with a post reticle. The glass appears clear and it appears to function correctly. The tube and knobs show scratches and wear. The front of the tube is worn and discolored. The scope is attached to a one piece mount with two rings. The mounting screws are integral to the base. The scope is marked “TEL. SIGHTING / No 32 MK III / O.S. 2039 A / AK&S No 17211 / 1944 / arrow”. The top knob is marked “0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10”. The side knob is marked “16 12 8 4 0 4 8 12 16”. The two scope ring tops and matching base bottoms are marked “486” and “487”. The left side of the scope base is marked “AS5991” and with the rifle serial number, “A1038”. The scope, rings and base are in about Very Good condition. The scope comes in a separate green canvas case with a rigid case insert. The case is torn where it folds over and shows discoloration. It is marked on the underside with four lines of stenciling and a large instruction label. The front of the case is stenciled with the matching serial numbers for the scope and rifle. The scope also comes with a one piece leather scope lens cover. It is worn and shows discoloration. The case and lens cover are in about Very Good condition.
Stock Configuration & Condition: The four piece, hardwood stock has a straight grip, raised check piece, nose caps, two barrel bands, three sling loops, and a brass buttplate with hinged door for storage. The raised cheek piece is secured by two screws. The stock has a 2” long compression mark on the left side of the butt. There are small compression marks on the right of the butt. There are light compression and handling marks on the wood. There are light scratches on the cheek piece. The LOP measures 13 1/8” from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. The stock rates in about Fine to Excellent overall condition.
Type of Finish: As Military Applied
Finish Originality: Refinished During Sniper Upgrade
Bore Condition: The bore is bright; the rifling is deep and sharp. There is no erosion.
Overall Condition: This rifle retains about 93% of its current metal finish. The nose caps are scratched and worn. Some of the finish is flaking off the scope base where the scope attaches. It is also flaking of on scratched areas of the receiver. Imperfections in the metal were finished over during the refinishing. The brass buttplate is oxidized and lightly scratched. The trigger guard and sling swivels are scratched. The screw heads show light use. The new markings are deep; some of the old markings are faded. Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition, as refinished.
Mechanics: The action functions correctly. We have not fired this rifle.
Box, Paperwork& Accessories: The rifle comes with a 10-round magazine that shows wear and scratches. It is in about Very Good Condition. It also comes with a bayonet and scabbard. The bayonet has an 8” spike, a push button release, and is marked “N67” (made by Singer 1942-1944) on the release as well as with faint markings on the side of the base. It shows light wear and is in about Very Good to Fine condition. The hard plastic sheath is unmarked and shows wear and scratches; it is in about Very Good condition. It comes with a brown leather sling that is marked “SA in a box”, a Finnish Property mark. It is worn scratched and in about Very Good condition.
Our Assessment: This rifle started out as an Enfield No.4 Mk1 made at the Maltby factory. It was selected for its inherent accuracy and then sent off to Holland & Holland to be upgraded to a sniper. This rare rifle comes with a scope, mount, scope case, bayonet and scabbard. This is a nice one to add to your collection. Please see photos as there are more markings on the accessories than listed above. For an article on the process of taking a No4 Mk1 and making it into a sniper, please see: From No4Mk I (T) to L42 AI | All About Enfields. Good Luck.
CA Legal or CA Private Party Transferable: This rifle is curio and relic eligible and can be transferred/sold in California.
Yes I agree a high price indeed, were the transit case to be with it then where would the price end, would this have been issued with one just a question people.
Thanks in advance
There are a few shortcomings with the rifle that can be seen. At some time in it's history, the scope and bracket were changed. The bolt (or at least the cocking piece) is not original, the front sight guard is not original, and who knows what else as a result of the FTR. I would think a non-FTR trials would be a lot more desirable, especially if it had it's original optic.
We'll see after the next 11 days what the market thinks it's worth. Personally, I think there are much better examples out there. The canvas scope case is a neat touch, but even that is a later replacement.
Since the rifle does appear to be as the army FTR'd, used, and disposed of it, hopefully the buyer will be satisfied with that rather than starting to try to un-do all the changes.
I always thought it was cute that they issued a bayonet with these...as if...
Jim,
Its a lonely life laying on your front for hours on end in smelly hesion, with your lungs filling full of fluids, after all you did need something to scratch you back with, they got more considerate as the war went on and put a longer one in, now thats back scratching at it finest:lol:
Cinders, The production 4T didn't have a transit case in 1942 when it was ready to go out to units waiting for them and I think the very first rifles to be delivered were done so in springfield factory boxes made to hold six rifles. The trials rifles manufactured some ten years earlier were housed in converted bren transit cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
I concur. We used to have a "gentlemen's agreement" that we would not post links to live auctions unless it was a fake and we were warning others. As many of you probably do as well, I look hard for rifles to purchase and would appreciate that others don't post links to live auctions. This rifle is in my back yard and I have handled it and I certainly don't need any more competition in the bidding.Quote:
Originally Posted by tlvaughn
Any thoughts from the rest of you on forum members posting links to live auctions? It just makes it more visible to the rest of the world and drives up prices. If other potential buyers aren't willing to put in the time to search for these items, we shouldn't help them out.
Thanks,
Brian B
Yes, we have some thoughts and have posted the following position statement many times over the years ...... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B
We've often had members express concerns about posting links to auctions and sales on other sites, for the benefit of all members.
Our position is that it's just fine to do. :thup:
If anyone believes that in this technology driven day and age, a public auction or sales ad appearing on the Internet, is somehow going to remain a secret amongst a select few who find it and want to exclusively keep it to themselves ... well, what can I say ... :lol:
This site is not a private clique. First and foremost, we are a research site founded with part of our mandate oriented to helping ALL members to be aware of public sales or auctions, including the ultimate prices those items sell for. We view it as just another part of a normal research and authentication process, particularly for new or less experienced collectors. Our approach to this policy has been the same for over 8 years and is not open for debate.
Thank you for respecting our wishes ... :beerchug:
Regards,
Doug
Well said, Brian B. The person who draws attention to an auction sometimes turns out to be none other than the person selling the item!
Oh Dear! I am a simple naïve fool. I just appreciate people letting me know what's going on. Mind you, indeed I can understand collectors pulling their hair out as their prized hoped for possession just became a lot more expensive.
Good luck with your bidding.
ATB.
I like to think that I can see all sides of every point but like I say time and time again on the 'what's it worth' thread. The true price of something is the auction price. That ain't the VALUE or the COST....... It's the price that someone will pay. I ain't no economist but have been blessed with a bit of pragmatism and an added dash of the bleedin' obvious.
And we need to inject a bit of the bleedin obvious to this argument. Does anyone here really believe that of the millions of people visiting that auction side or those same (but less in number) people viewing gun sites will be missing the bargain you were hoping to hook? I VERY much doubt it. They're just sitting there, waiting to see what's going to happen at the very end. And like you, they'll pounce!
Annanuvverfing......... Like ANY auction, for a car or a vase or some decent snap-on tools, no matter where or whatever it is about, just set yourself a realistic value and bid up to that point - and not a PENNY more
Good theory and it works unless you let it get personal. Then the sky is the limit. I have to admit to having done that a time or two myself at auctions. Sometimes it's a psychological game too. But in either case, it also becomes an expensive one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Fortunately you never pay too much, you just buy too early.
I think this is a complicated question. Anyone looking for a 4T will surely have seen this auction, but now that it has been discussed here and has been given a general “thumbs up” by some very respected folks, will that prompt some bidders to pay more? And I mean bidders unlike Brian B who rely only on other people’s knowledge.
Okay, now if a tree falls in the forest and no one......
Give honest auction sellers some credit too. It's a ton of work behind the scenes answering questions and suppling additional requests for pictures. I'm learning.
If prices dont go up by at least CPI your collection is devaluing, who wants that.:sos: I am happy for the world to know what is at auction:beerchug::super:
I really had not looked at the rifle closely till Brian B commented. Now that I take a closer look, maybe it would be a nice rig to bid upon. A trials rifle is a very rare variation after all, on par with an Enforcer or Longbranch I'd think. And they have been bringing big dollars lately.
The thing that would make me want to put the hairy eyeball to this rifle is that the magazine cutoff remains after at least on complete rework. Seems odd. But I'm not currently in the market, so I'll let those more involved spend the time.
Thanks for all of the positive debate. It has been eating at me a while and I wanted to at least vent a little about all the posts to live auctions. I am certain that this rifle will bring more money now that it has been posted here on the forum. I realize that it will bring what it is worth at an auction, but the second part of the equation is how many people attend the auction. In this case, there will now be more potential bidders and the price will most likely rise higher than it would have.
jmoore, I also thought it strange that an FTR'd trial rifle would still have its cutoff.
Just another little point to ponder too............... Ask yourself just how many auction rifles and other odds and sods we have actually given the thumbs down to. Or those that we have actually flayed alive with our words of scorn or derision. I can think of those flanders flap thinggies recently (that I personally wouldn't give breathing space to....., mind you I'm not and never have been a collector.....)
Just food for thought as a sort of reminder of the phrase about cake - and eating it........
The "hands on" advantage would be to first check it's the proper No.4 cutoff and not a No.1. (Can't make out clues for sure on this monitor, and the easy areas aren't shown well if at all..)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B
3 minutes of "hands on" is worth days of trying to discern stuff over the internet. That's worth major premium to me.
ETA: Sometimes even smells are important. Let me know when internet gun auction sites add a "sniff" feature!
The retention of cut-offs on Trials T's is indeed an odd thing. One could even argue that they should have been removed as early as the conversion process, let alone at FTR., yet most of the Trials T's I've seen have still had their cut-offs present, even when FTR'ed, so I wouldn't be particularly surprised about that. But I would agree, I prefer to give any rifle I am contemplating buying a close Mk1 eyeball inspection to using even the best of digital photo's.
ATB
Since my post created somewhat of an unintended firestorm, I figured I might as well throw my two cents out there as well since others have. As Doug has stated, this "is not open for debate", it is his site and his rules, my intent is and never will be to change the rules.
I am not naive in thinking that I am the only one in the world that knows about a particular rifle for sale, after all, it is called the World Wide Web. I, like many other, search the auction sites daily, and when I do come across a rifle I want/need, I know there are others out there that also want this rifle and I am prepared to bid against them to my maximum limit, but I do not announce it to the world, why would I want to invite unwanted competition? On the other hand, as a seller, I would obviously want the world to know about it, any one with any business commonsense knows that marketing helps sell, and we are free marketing for the seller.
I have no issue with others posting live auctions, my comment was sort of tongue in cheek, however, just like it is the right of members to post live auctions on this site, it is my right to not post any auctions until they are closed. The only question I have for those stating there are no issues with posting live auctions is this, if you came across a rifle that you wanted and knew you were going to be bidding on, would you still post the link to the auction? If you are being honest with yourselves, you will answer, "No, I would not".
With that said, I do not and never intended to bid on the 1933 Trials Rifle, so I have no dog in this fight, but I am curious as to what the final price tag will be. Good Luck to all of those that are bidding!
As i said i am happy for the world to know what is at auction i buy at auction. I dont sell i buy. The deepest pocket wins on the day. Listing to sell makes the game public property not private so get used to the game. I buy local,national and internationaly in person for all three and online for all three.
There is a positive thing about posting current auctions here, are that any problems, wrong parts, or any other negatives of the rifle are generally identified and discussed by experienced members here. Thus allowing for a better idea of what it's worth and if you should bid or not on it. Ray
Personally I think it's a tremendous feature of this forum that postings identifying interesting auctions/ sales are encouraged. If, like me, you don't have time to sit on the interweb all day, seven days a week, the forum is like an intelligent search engine! Nothing is more frustrating than missing out on a crack at something you're after by virtue of simply not knowing about it. For example, a Trials T was listed on CanadianGunnutz early one morning this week but was gone by the time I brewed a coffee and turned on the computer.
Regarding the rifle discussed in this thread, could someone comment on the significance of the "TR" on the left cheek? I understand the origin of this marking on later No. 4 T's but fail to see why it would be present on one but not all converted No. 4 Trials rifles.
Ridolpho
As someone who's a collecter/user I'd rather get a bargain than not. I don't really have a problem with people posting auctions which are obviously correctly marked and anyone with saved searches will find, but it's those 'look at this badly described item I don't want to bid on it though' ones that get my goat as those can take no small amount of intelligent hunting to find and are the only real chance of a good deal. Top market rates is NOT (for me) the way to get my hands on the gear.
On this rifle - it certainly has something of a sheen to it - do you reckon it's been refinished (metal) and varnished (wood)?
Looks like an honest FTR Trials "T" to me. I'd have to agree with the Prinz that it's most likely been sanded and stained post service. I think it's just several coats of linseed or maybe Tru-oil finish, not varnish. I've been stripping gunstocks this week for customer repairs. Polyurethane on an SMLE just doesn't cut it. Yuck!! What a job.
I would agree entirely with Brian on the refinishing issue. The butt is definitely a replacement as it is made from beech. All the Trials rifles went out stocked up in walnut.
ATB
I suspect this thread may do more to keep the price down than drive it up. Anyone considering spending thousands on a rifle off the Internet is well advised to do some research on said Internet, and doing so, they would certainly find this site, and very likely this thread. Particularly if they enter the URL of the auction in their Google search!
So, as StenCollector pointed out, there are numerous replacement parts, in fact it is easier to mention the parts that are original: the receiver/body, the backsight, the trigger (apparently)...and that's about it! Except perhaps for a few internal parts we can't see, probably not including the barrel.
The cutoff appears to be the No4 trials model, but as previously mentioned, would it survive a few trips through workshops? Probably a later addition by an owner trying to "restore", which we've probably all done and fair enough. The forend is not a MkI however: the relief for the cutoff is an obvious modification by someone.
The rifle number on the bracket looks like a home handyman job done recently.
Looks like someone has emery papered the bolt body to make it look more "original".
I'm trying to puzzle out the original scope number on the wrist: 3562 ? Doesn't look struck out or effaced in the way one would expect for a service job.
Is it an S51 marked butt? We're not shown.
So, it does look like an FTR'd rifle that's had most of its parts replaced over the years, but I wouldn't bet a dime that the scope and bracket were a service fitting.
I have the impression that the photos are quite carefully arranged to exclude certain points, such as the lack of a butt marking disc. As well as avoiding closeups of number stamps etc. This shows IMO that the seller has some knowledge of the weaknesses of the rifle and is trying to steer our eyes away from them.
If someone wants a trials No4(T), they'd do better to keep looking IMO.
The late model canvas scope case leads some credibility to the scope being military matched to the rifle. The numbering on the back matches this setup. But it's not definitive. I would agree though that the re-numbering looks kind of cheap. It does not have the quality stamping you usually see on a renumbered bracket. They don't seem to make the number punches that hard anymore.
If the seller knows it's a trials, I don't see any advantage to excluding some collectors by not promoting that fact in the listing.
I personally would far rather paid the price for the all matching trials T that was listed on gunnutz earlier this week. Either that, or have a chance to buy back the one I purchased at the local gun show for $325 about 15 years back.
It's still a real Trials T & I guess whether I wanted it or not would very much depend on how much anyone asked me for it. Of course I'd want it if the price was right, though I agree with Surpmil in that I believe the photo's may have been taken purposely as they are, intentionally showing what they do & not showing what they don't! The butt could well be original to an early run of production BSA or Maltby T but it is not original to the shown rifle. The fore end is also likely a later made replacement.
However, I return to the comment that despite its various shortcomings the guts of it are perfectly genuine & desirable up to a point. Peter is right - have a maximum punt & stick to it.
The first scope number on the wrist has been struck with an original cancellation stamp. It looks correct to me other than being sanded on considerably. I'm pretty convinced the scope is an original replacement to that rifle for reasons mentioned by stencollector above. I've seen all manner of ugly cancellations and restampings on brackets so it doesn't look out of place to me. We know that the rifle has seen FTR at least once and you can bet it's been worked on by Armourer's shops elsewhere too before being surplused onto the civvies market. I'll stick to my opinion that it's honest with some work done on the wood by a previous collector to pretty it up a bit.
When I found the auction listing.It wasn't listed as a trials rifle.I called them and told them the difference.I also told them about the 1933 date hidden behind the England stamp.
I told them them it wasn't done by holland and holland,but they never removed it.
What sold me ,was the numbering on the canvas scope case.I had 2 other #4 snipers that were FTR'ed with new scopes that were marked with the same size/color markings on the case.
Good news is,I am still the high bidder!
That was a very noble thing to do superbee; to let everyone else know about a rifle at auction even though you were hoping to buy it yourself.
here is another one that sold last fall to compare it by.
LOT #1402 - ENFIELD NO. 4 MK1 T BRITISH SNIPER BOLT ACTION
Personally I've never seen a bracket or photo of one renumbered by a few shallow chisel marks through the previous rifle number. Either it was "X"s all through, or peened out with a dull punch, or ground out, or some combination thereof. The goal being to make the previous number illegible.
Since the rifle has been painted at FTR why would the bracket not be also, and the scope for that matter? Not following SOPs from what I've read about them. Bare metal exposed by the stamps and no effort to rust-proof or dull it?
That bright shiny metal in the chisel marks and the matching number stamps also says "not done 50+ years ago" to me. I don't remember seeing oversize letters being used with smaller numbers either.
The case is nicely numbered to match the scope and the rifle, and the marking does closely match, almost, the original stenciled designation on the other side of the case. but of course the scope & rifle numbers didn't go on at that same time and place those markings, so how odd that they should so closely match!
Could it be that some enterprising soul thought it would be wise to copy the same style markings as near as possible?
There were 30 or 40 years ago lots of mismatching No4(T)s on the North American market; it wouldn't be surprising if some dealer was in the habit of "improving" things.
I could be wrong of course, but in what scenario would this kind of work have been done, if not in an FTR?
I do see indications of the "cancellation mark" on the original scope number, but why was it not also used on the original number on the bracket if it was done at the same time?
Could it have been a rifle that was FTR'd without a scope and bracket and that was the reason for the cancellation mark being used on one, and not the other?
I suppose it's possible some armourer somewhere, sometime did it this way, but it does not fit the pattern IMO.
I'm sure you've seen more than me but on all I've seen the old numbers were simply lined out and still readable.
Er........ what are we looking at? Surely, those you show are barred out and still readable aren't they? Just as they should be - and as we generally did them.
Surpmill,
Sorry I have to disagree. I have had several Lee's with scope mounts ie 4T/Enforcer and now an L42, all of which have either had two or more numbers stamped on the mounts.
It is also a "clear" data trail of the previous numbers, as armourers don't stamp x's on old numbers on the scope mounts they simply put a line through them.
Hope that clears that one up
Gil
I think the official directive (as Peter indicates) was to bar through, so as to make it clear that the number was no longer relevant, but not to obliterate it totally. Of course, we live in the real world & if the armourer just happened to have a 'X' letter stamp in his left hand & a hammer in his right.........!
........And of course, scopes/brackets were not just swapped over in British/Commonwealth service; many of the rifles that we see have been quite well travelled in the post-WW2 years. The possibilities for variations in marking under these circumstances are considerable. What I'm saying is that one might reasonably see different variations on 'genuine' refurbished/rematched rifles. I have seen serials obliterated with a punch, XXX'd out, as well as lined, & all on weapons I believed to be un-messed about with by civilian tinkering. Most were lined out.
ATB
Roger,
Agreed, but solely in terms of scope brackets, I think there must have been a "universal" policy in lining, as I don't remember ever seeing one xxx'd out at all, would the alloy take, surely by wacking it several times, all you need is to find one flaw in the alloy processing for it to produce a crack?.
You probably saw more than me so I bow to your judgement
Gil,
Yes, I was talking in terms of scope brackets on 4T's. Are you referring to any item specifically when you mention alloy, or are you just referring to more modern kit generally?
ATB
Roger,
Just modern kit generally
Gil
Well I stand corrected on the bracket numbers! I'm wondering why it was thought desirable to be able to read the previous numbers? Not great psychology to issue a soldier a rifle that looks like it was assembled from used parts IMHO, but...
The numbering on the case still looks too much like someone being clever to me; but I'm willing to be proven wrong there too! ;)
I must admit I can see where you're coming from on that one Rob. It does look rather uniform & neat. But then again, I don't think anyone is ever going to be able to say categorically one way or the other (unless it HAS been faked & the faker comes clean - ha! ha!). I'm open minded on it, but if I were interested in buying the rifle it wouldn't be a serious minus for me.
ATB.
Attachment 51671Attachment 51671Here is a pic of a sniper case with the same writing.It was a all matching legit FTR rifle.
Looks like it was off a Maltby rifle.
You are correct!A 1941 maltby.
Leaving the old number visible prevents theft and philandering. I have seen the rule in print re Canadian Forces guns, and I am sure it would have been the same for British service. If, for example, a receiver was re-used to repair a different rifle, the original number would have been barred out (but still legible) and the new number stamped. If a rifle is found with the serial obliterated or signs of tampering, then the rifle was to be backloaded to 3rd line for determination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
This prevented someone from playing musical chairs with equipment through exchange or outright theft.
It is notable that this rule was not followed for the recycled Cno7 receivers which were burnished of their numbers and returned to stores. There were several hundred "like new" barrelled no4mk1* receivers available from the CFSS (non accountable...go figure) which were still complete with their serials.
Yes, I can the logic in that where receivers are concerned, but scope mounts not so much...
Wasn't our CF system 'famous' for having un-numbered receivers available to order however? Makes the SOP you mention a bit pointless doesn't it?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps1c05-1.jpg
My 1931 trials T bracket, previous number is clearly X'd out. I can just make out 31030 but I think its safe to say the intention was to obliterate the numbers.
Thanks for that Steve, first one I've seen like that, and would have been a right clout several times to obliterate deeply seated numbers with those x's
A closely related thread: Of the 1500 No4 trials rifles converted to snipers
Anyone notice the receiver on the one above was not cut out for a cutoff. Most of the Trials I've seen had the cut off. Maybe during the Trials they decided to eliminate the cutoff on some. RayQuote:
Originally Posted by superbee
I say it was still cut,just hidden behind the high cut replacement wood.
Scopes and brackets) are quite desirable, back then as much as now. When I was working as a civlian contractor overseas, I saw a few civilian contractors horsetrading for acog or eotech scopes, and even for PAQ-15 lasers, thinking they were going to use them for moose hunting. I am pretty sure they were disappointed in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surpmil
I had seen receivers come out of the supply system, but just as often as not they had numbers barred out on them. There is a SMG C-1 at the local museum with two or three serial numbers on it. I have seen ex-Cdn sten examples with the original number neatly barrel out and a newer number added. My example of an early LongBranch sten (0L18) was one of these....fortunately the barring was light and the gun was able to be restored as an early example (dewat of course).
I do remember as a young corporal in the 80s, helping the supply tech pull his redundant stock from the bin trucks. There were two wooden boxes with brand new Inglis hipower frames packed in 40 year old grease. Things like that were not supposed to be at a first line unit.
Yes, I think it is perhaps more likely that the fore end in lot #1402 is just a later replacement & so obscures the slot for the cut off.
ATB.
Yes, you're right, I was asleep on that one, RayQuote:
Originally Posted by superbee
Yes, one of the perks of the trade I suppose, just like many others have theirs, and in this world of $5000. hammers, not such an important issue perhaps. But since the barred-out numbers are not recorded anywhere, and would have no official validity, I still don't see how leaving them on is going to inhibit theft. An armourer who wants to nick something can erase the numbers or add new ones as required, once he takes it home or before. Of course if he failed to do so, and got caught with said items, there might be a problem. Unless he had already satisfied "the system" by either writing his prize off for destruction or substituting another similar item, renumbered to match. I've heard it happens even in the best places! ;)
Substitutions happened at more than just the armourer's level. My last unit had 4 or 6 of the LongBranch .22 Cno7s held in the HQ battery BQ's stores. Not really sure why a regular force artillery unit was holding these....it was suggested they were held for the unit's cadet corps. At any rate, imagine the weapons techs surprise when they were doing the semi annual inspections on these and found that the beautiful LongBranch wood sets had been exchanged for non-Canadian well-used and ill fitting surplus sets. Of course the BQ and his staff had no idea how this could have happened.
Trials T sold for $6,600 and change, USD. The L-39 went at a bargain price of little more than $1,100.00.
Either everybody has all they need or the economy is still in the tank. That L-39 should have brought half again that.