Was this gun under the money ? I know it's an import and the wood doesn't seem to fit right and there are missing markings, but this seems cheap for a RMC. Just trying to get a feel for the market.
Thanks Chris
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Was this gun under the money ? I know it's an import and the wood doesn't seem to fit right and there are missing markings, but this seems cheap for a RMC. Just trying to get a feel for the market.
Thanks Chris
Chris:
You need to copy and paste the web address of the auction in your post so we know for sure what carbine you are asking about. I'm too lazy to go auction hunting!!!
Chris: Is this the one you're asking about? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=404903387
No I'm sorry . Guess I forgot to paste it. Here it is !
M1 Carbine Rockola - 30 Carbine : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com
Chris:
Probably not enough information to tell if it is 'worth' the selling price to most reasonable people but I think it's pretty hard to get a decent Rock-ola mixmaster for under $800. Howevr, the importer mark and cheap repark job are nasty and we don't really know the condition of the muzzle and bore. The brazed trigger housing is right for this serial number and a big plus if the housing and some internal parts are Rock-ola, but we just don't know from the limited pics. In my opinion, the stock really doesn't matter that much in this price range. I guess the carbine is really worth what just one person is willing to pay for it but I don't think I would pop $850 for it without a some additional very favorable information. JMHO
At least that's one that S-T-B didn't get. Makes you wonder what it would have been described as in a month or so if they would have worked it over, and put it back up on GB. - Bob
Bob,
S T B Waits until the GB auction is old enough, so one can't pull up the auction pages.
Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777
Does he buy under a different ID ? I'm pretty new and I know I've seen basicaly the same gun twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Ha!!!. I think this one is even beyond STB's magic. Most of the re-park done by EXEL & Blue Sky looks like it was prepped to SSPC-10 with coarse silica blasting sand, or maybe tungsten shot. I don't think even STB could make it look legit again. Makes me question the selling price a little more when I think about it. The thing may just be ruined to common shooter status and not worth trying to clean up.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Thanks for the pointing out that brazed trigger guard on your first post, I totally missed it. ChrisQuote:
Originally Posted by ChipS
I don't know much about them, just had noticed they placed a bid on this one for $755.00 on the morning the auction ended. - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by carwashchris
I caught Sam T Blob auctioning one while it was still available to view as a B&R when he bought it.
I posted it here a little over a month ago.
Searched his feedback and it came up.
Here's Sam-T-Blob's current offering.
M1 Carbine - Underwood "Very Early" : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com
Here is the same rifle when he bought it for $704.
EARLY Underwood M1 Carbine 30 Barreled Receiver : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com
Very interesting, Thanks! - Bob
He's good !
We all hate the destruction of stocks being restamped. So we can slow it down a lot.
Someone on another site tipped me off to his tactics. He bids on rifles with high wood stocks that can be stamped to look like USGI cartouches, even if the rifle is import stamped. Import stamps just means he can get them cheaper. He also bids on receivers with little or no staking for reproduction flip sights (the same receivers we look for to get a more collectible carbine). If it's import marked, pitted barrel, shot out barrel, it doesn't matter. He'll buy it anyway to get the stock or receiver or original trigger group.
That tells you there is more money left on the table. Just out-bid him. If he bids on something, there is a reason, making it a good buy for anyone interested in collecting. His top bids are said to be a little north of $900 for more rare highwood rifles, but about $800 for more common high wood stocked rifles. You can contact the sellers that he's bidding on to ask questions about the items to see if there are parts confirming more value that aren't pictured. With a little effort the gravy train of his bubba'd Carbines can be slowed to a trickle.
I believe he's already using other usernames to buy to keep people from out bidding him on things he can fill full of reproduction parts and resell for profit. It's easy to see who they are because it will be always be a high wood stock or the receiver has proper staking. Those are said to be the biggies. Other rare parts are an attractant but lesser degree.
Let's get into the game on this. It's doubtful you'll lose. If the bids get too high, bail out since you know where he'll stop and at least you can cost him some money. I saw someone bid him from about $650 in the last hour when he was the only bidder to running it to $900 for an Underwood that turned out to be a mix master. It looked like it had an original configuration but that other bidder contacted the seller to ask about some of the parts at the last minute (upping his bid every 13 minutes to keep it open until the seller responded) and it wasn't as original as it looked in the pics. He stuck him for over $200 on that one. The seller was happy.
Someone did a decent job on him there. I wish more people would do that, at least. He still got the stock, but it made it harder on him to make money. It got in his pocket for $250, which is the price of a some good high woods.
You'll immediately be able to use or resell the undamaged stock for plenty if you want to. If you get stuck with a high wood stock, rest assured it will be worth more money next year, and the next year and next.
You need to do a little bit, give a little bit, to protect the hobby you love.
Nobody wants to be taken advantage of, either by fakery or pricing. Many want to respect the history of the weapons and integrity of the hobby. Of course there are some who are strictly in it for the money. Even collectors want a return on their investment. I've know forum guys who charge what is the max the market will bear. Even on items they found at substantially less.
That being said, these buyers and re-sellers are only doing something morally illegal. Distasteful to many or most of us, but not against the law. Using the forum to report and inform others is being helpful. But scheming against another I don't think is helpful. The marketplace has and always will be buyer beware. Books, past experiences, asking questions on a forum, pictures, friends. Being well educated in one's hobby is a better way to deal with these unscrupulous sellers.
We should strive to be fair and friendly.
Well then, as far as scheming to inform others that parts aren't USGI during an active auction, that would fall into that category of wrong too by your explanation.
I'm saying to people that if they want to buy a good rifle or good part, bid on what that man is bidding on and you'll have made a good investment. If a person cares about the integrity of the hobby it is identical to informing others that his auctions are very sketchy in all these threads about him as it is to suggest to outbid him.
And there is absolutely nothing morally wrong with wanting a return on an investment and nothing morally wrong with asking the retail for an item. That is the nature of investing. I've bee glad to pay retail for the bulk of my stuff, because I know it'll be worth more next year.
If I make a bulk buy and end up with a free USGI paratrooper stock do you expect me to sell it for about what I have in it? That's a rhetorical question. BTW, I own a Winchester stock purchased from Rex Guin that he said came from you for retail value. I don't know what he paid to whom, but I know what I was told when I paid over $300 3 yrs ago.
Perhaps I'm misreading or misunderstanding your "he said, she said" comments here partner... :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
For the clarity of all our members, what are you implying about Jim (JimF4M1s)?
Regards,
Doug
I'm responding to a finger pointed at me and being told I'm doing something wrong to sell at retail if I paid substantially less. On most forums when a moderator engages someone, that someone is allowed to respond. Is that not allowed?Quote:
I've know forum guys who charge what is the max the market will bear. Even on items they found at substantially less.
That being said, these buyers and re-sellers are only doing something morally illegal.
Usually I'm the one paying retail, but I will buy bulk to save on the specific item I wanted and sell the others (if I get around to actually selling the others). Jim likened that practice to that of sellers on GB selling false parts on hacked Carbines.
Speculating on kidneys to live on, or scalping medicine people need just to live, would be morally illegal. I think Jim's a nice man. I don't see any correlation in SamTBob and most of the people buying and/or selling. I don't know anyone who's here to lose money. Spouses don't put up with much of that.
Of course, fair and civil criticism is allowed, but only if it's factually correct ... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
I assume if your hearsay anecdotal feedback proves to be incorrect, you'll post the appropriate public retraction and apology to Jim.
Thanks .. :cheers:
Regards,
Doug
First, my comment "these buyers and re-sellers are only doing something morally illegal. Was referring to the re-sellers of the faked/repo'd carbines, not the casual person finding a deal on something. I feel sometimes people read more into a comment then what was intended. Or I expressed myself poorly.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
Seeing that comment this morning has me dismayed. I don't understand why/where it came from, or the implication. I assume it is meant to impugn my character. So I feel a need to respond.
If someone has told you I sold them a carbine or stock recently, you were misinformed. I haven't sold a carbine or stock in at least 10-12 years. The last time I even shipped a stock was to painter777 to be refinished, four or five years ago.
I have traded some carbines to my cousin, but have only sold two carbines since I started collecting in 1976. Underwood T, and W coded with leaf sights many years ago. Neither for higher the $650. I have sold a few knives, oilers, mag pouches, tracer and grenade launcher ammo, and maybe a hand guard in the last five years, all to members here. The last few years I have just given parts to newer people to help them out, a Karma so to speak. Anything I have or will ever sell has had an open return policy for any reason. So back to the stock you mention. The only way it could have come from me was off of the two above mentioned Underwoods. And if so, and you bought it, you must have liked it. So I ask, what is your contention?
Let's keep in mind, our forum guidelines are to try and be fair and friendly towards each other while discussing our hobby and interests.
The Rock strikes me as a Korean refinish, possibly re-stocked here. If its in good mechanical condition, I don't see any problem with the price. In the not-too-distant future, one like that will go for twice that price. Very similar to 1911 rebuilds which in the last five years have carved out their own niche in the collectable arena, going for $1200 or so. Many of those are undocumented with no arsenal marks and possibly were rebuilt/refinished at other levels of maintenance than the arsenal rebuild programs and so were not marked. You just have to be knowledgeable about the carbines and pistols to hopefully avoid a 'home job', but the rebuilds do get blurry and next to impossible to read sometimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimF4M1s
Yes, I will strive to be fair and friendly, Jim. And I hate that we've had a disagreement. I hate that it comes over a topic we agree on too. I understand your explanation this morning. The original statement includes those selling at an increase by using the plural when the only subject would be a singular seller Sam-T-Bob, so I couldn't help but take addition of the phrase "that being said" with the entirety to implicate even forum members as mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimF4M1s
I agree with what you are saying was your actual intent only towards fraudulent sales.
We know who most of the sellers are in the hobby. I have zero issue with them being here to buy and sell. It would be cheaper for me and other buyers if they weren't doing it, but I have no issue with them doing it. I still volunteer to buy from them if the item is something I want and they are an agreeable personality.
Getting a stored value by buying low for a higher value item is a lot of my goal in the hobby. I buy rare parts I will probably never use, much like you have. It's like a treasure hunt for me. So I personally can't understand why it would concern anyone that someone is making an increase in the hobby. So, if that's not your statement, I then understand you to just be talking about people like that GB seller.
I'm positive you're reading more into it and I felt I explained myself with the example. I'm just relaying that I willingly purchased a stock said to have come from your possession at one time, and the seller sold it at high retail because of condition. I made no assertion that you are selling for profit. What I was implying is it's well known you have a grail of items as a collector and that they have a value or you would not have collected them. And since you're not in the habit of selling, I'm saying they still have that value to you (and to the rest of us). Most collectors do help out the new guys. I still get help and I help others in return. That help we give impacts our ability to get nice items, but we're supporting the hobby. Most collectors sell an occasional item and don't make a practice of hurting themselves to do it.Quote:
Seeing that comment this morning has me dismayed. I don't understand why/where it came from, or the implication. I assume it is meant to impugn my character. So I feel a need to respond.
This is only an example, but nowhere did I say you sold something recently. I didn't even say I bought it recently.Quote:
If someone has told you I sold them a carbine or stock recently, you were misinformed. I haven't sold a carbine or stock in at least 10-12 years. The last time I even shipped a stock was to painter777 to be refinished, four or five years ago.
Understood. I paid a fair price for the item and it was my choice to willingly buy the item several years ago. I have ZERO issue with a person selling an item for more than they paid because it is not morally illegal to do so. That's the contention in entirety.Quote:
I have traded some carbines to my cousin, but have only sold two carbines since I started collecting in 1976. Underwood T, and W coded with leaf sights many years ago. Neither for higher the $650. I have sold a few knives, oilers, mag pouches, tracer and grenade launcher ammo, and maybe a hand guard in the last five years, all to members here. The last few years I have just given parts to newer people to help them out, a Karma so to speak. Anything I have or will ever sell has had an open return policy for any reason. So back to the stock you mention. The only way it could have come from me was off of the two above mentioned Underwoods. And if so, and you bought it, you must have liked it. So I ask, what is your contention?
The only real foul is that one seller everyone agrees on is misrepresenting items and the hobby. I feel you were unfairly impugning my character by yourself partaking in threads that hold derogatory (unfriendly) comments and then implying I'm doing something wrong by suggesting a method for collectors to get a good item while at the same time protecting the hobby would be to fairly out-bid him at the market place. I'm showing how it's a good business practice. If a reseller is willing to pay that same price, there's a reason for it and it can benefit the buyer and us (two fold). That is the reason for my response to you, just as you responded above.
I'm bent strongly toward fairness, maybe even to the extreme, like many who post about bogus items. I understand that you have a duty to protect the forum you're moderating on. I'm participating on this forum and won't misrepresent anything or anyone. I even hold my tongue on some of the bogus deals I've witnessed from 1 or 2 who post here.
I don't have a dog in this fight. I really don't understand what you guys are arguing about. But, on a lighter side I don't think there is any such condition as "morally illegal". I believe it's either moral or immoral and legal or illegal. Wait, maybe it could be moral but still be illegal. I stand corrected - I think. LOL
Trying to explain the character of these people who buy a sow's ear and turn it into a silk purse is a waste of time. You can't shame someone who has no scruples. You could tar and feather this guy and he'd still laugh at you.