Bren Mk II mgfr '42, unfired until 2013??

Hi all!,
New to the forum, and new to BREN's in general, so go gently,,,,,and looking for a little help if possible with my first BREN acquisiiton. I just bought this Mk II gun, (for those off-shore to me here in the USA, it's a fully live firing MG here, although a bit restricted as classed as a "Dealer Sample" gun, still live and I intend to use it that way.....a LOT.)

Here's the link to the GunBroker auction, it probably wont be active too long, so you may want to look now.

Bren LMG post 86 dealer sample : Machine Guns at GunBroker.com


I am also attaching separately here, the actual pictures from the auction; until I get the gun transferred to me they are all I have to go on, so bear with me on that. ;-)

The gun was listed as being unfired since new, then only fired by the last owner for the first time in 2013?? Wow! From mfgr in 1942 to 2013....How is that even possible?? I was under the impression that the UK was desperate to get its hands on every BREN it possibly could in 1942....so how in Hell does a gun like this escape not only being caught up in the actual War needs at the time, but then also being stuck away somewhere for the next damn near 71 years?? How could this get by being used in the War, after being manufactured in '42.....a dark time for England to be sure. And do you have any idea where it might have sat for the next 70 years?? Who got unissued BRENs after the War?? ....Greece maybe??

To the gun pictured.....from Dugelby's Second Edition, I get the visible markings indicate it made in '42, on a Daimler/Monotype receiver (the impressed large 'D' marking). Seems to look like "as issued" condition, i.e., no updates or changes to anything resembling Mk IV or post-War goodies, etc. Point being, it does NOT look like a post-War FTR refinished gun, to my un-expert eyes???

The VISIBLE condition of the metal parts and wooden stock and grip.....go a long way toward having me guardedly believe the "unissued condition" story.....the metal just looks TOO CLEAN and smooth (i.e,, no dings, scratches, etc.) to be much less than "new"???

Anything else anyone can tell me about ANYTHING you see in these pictures here, would be GREATLY appreciated!!! I am not well versed in English stuff..... ;-O I am primarily interested in subtle nuances visible here that may support the claimed "unissued/un-fired" assertions of the auction verbage. It's a Century Intl import......so God only knows!!

Thanks in advance!
-TomH

Unissued and unfired from new.......... Listen, buy the gun and not the story and if you are going to try to convince yourself that it is an unissued and unfired, then get a half decent magnifier and have a look at the gas parts. Not just the obvious bits but the NOT so obvious bits!

Its probably been to workshops before it was sold off and given the once over and re-phosphated. They all look new and unfired after going through a base workshops overhaul and the phosphating tank.

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Originally Posted by nzl1a1collector

Its probably been to workshops before it was sold off and given the once over and re-phosphated. They all look new and unfired after going through a base workshops overhaul and the phosphating tank.

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I agree TOTALY with your comment's nz1a1! I would say exactly the same! When any Smallarm has been through workshops for a complete overhaul & a re-Phospating. They ALL exit 'Looking' New to the untrained eye!........

I would stick my neck out & say, this gun is NOT 'Brand New, & Unfired' in My Opinion!....... I have overhauled many hundreds/ thousands of varying types of Small Arms & MGs during My Service Time. I have yet to see an 'Unfired, Brand New Bren'!................

But just SHOOT & enjoy your Bren when you get it! There's is nothing like turning live rounds into empty cases. On Full Auto!................LOL!

My post sample L4A3 started it's career in 1942 as a Daimler Mk.II, the same as yours. It was converted in 1966 to L4 specification at Enfield and then FTR'd again by Interarms in the 1980's in anticipation of sale to a foreign government which never occurred. It looks pretty much new too but it certainly isn't unfired!!

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I can say it's defo wasn't unfired. The Barrel is an Inglis replacement, the Daimler type has no key way for the locating peg found on an Inglis Mk2.

Still, not to put a downer on things, it's still a nice condition gun and if you intend to fire it, your one up than me! I don't think you will ever regret it, except for maybe the cost of ammo. You can put your other guns to bed for good once you've shot a Bren.

As BP says regarding the barrel with the addition that the sliding butt group assembly is also Inglis (Canadian).

ATB KG

Tact ain't been back re his thread starter but reading his thing again, I think he's saying that he's lifted his thread pictures from somewhere and they aren't his gun but used to illustrate one that he's acquired. On that basis, some of our comments may be wrong. I could be barking up the wrong tree of course but..........

But I doubt that any of us will be wrong about his being a pristine UNfired example!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Tact ain't been back re his thread starter but reading his thing again, I think he's saying that he's lifted his thread pictures from somewhere and they aren't his gun but used to illustrate one that he's acquired. On that basis, some of our comments may be wrong. I could be barking up the wrong tree of course but..........

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Hi Peter!,
Yes, you are precisely correct above; I just bought this gun from the GunBroker auction referenced in my initial post- the ONLY pictures I have to go by are those shown in the auction link, and that I also attached to my fist post here. Don't shoot the messenger!!

If you actually followed that auction link above, you'll see the statements about it being new were from the auction listing itself, I was questioning the same thing in my initial post, and came here with those pictures for some expert advice to add or detract from the assertion of newness claimed in the auction listing. I won't get the actual gun in my hands for a month or so, but when I do I will immediately post up a bunch of pictures, including all markings and mfgr marks and codes visible. THEN....we can go from some actual information.

My primary interest for a little support of the claim as to the gun being "new" had nothing to do with the finish, per se, but rather more about the condition of the metal and metal work it seems to show in the above pictures. The physical condition of the metal shown seems to advise that the gun and its parts have seen little exposure to service conditions and seems largely devoid of any scratches, dings, dents, or abusive treatments.....i,.e., it looks "new". Would be happy to hear any comments toward that light.......

Two helpful comments posted above-

"The Barrel is an Inglis replacement, the Daimler type has no key way for the locating peg found on an Inglis Mk2."

-and-

"......that the sliding butt group assembly is also Inglis (Canadian)"

THIS is the kind of supporting evidence that I was looking for! Things visible to Ya'lls eyes that I might not know about or catch on to......so, THANKS!!

(That said,,,,,pls educate me.....What gave away the fact that these are Inglis parts??)

The above two comments pretty much tell me what I need to know.....it's not all original Brit parts, so there we go. I am now more than ever inclined to question how this assemblage of mis-matched parts managed to not be beat up and show signs of use??

It's a Century Intl import.....so I guess I can go call George Samson and see what he can tell me about the serial number. He's pried open the books before for such a question.

(Peter- Thanks for your kind reply initially; Upon Herbie's kind invites, I have spent more hours than I care to remember bent over long tables and pull out drawers examining subtle nuances among markings and tooling marks on all manner of obscure ordnance at the old Pattern Room. Despite Richard's long suffering looks, I managed to learn quite an abundance of things, high quality optical magnifier in hand. I didn't even need aspirin tablets to bring up the markings like Dolf, my eyes aren't THAT old yet!

And, Yes, I do know what "new" really looks like- when that whack of unopened Sterling Mk IV's popped up here for sale again a year or so ago, as soon as one came in we immediately emailed a ton pictures directly to David Howroyd, who confirmed the pedigree of all the wrapping paper, taping, and packaging just as he remembered doing it. He even joked his fingerprints were probably all over it! So, yeah, I'm not mistaking "new" here with this Bren, just looking for some input based upon the pictures I supplied. Until I get the gun here, that's all I have to go on..... ;-) )

-TomH

Tom,hope the pics below help to point out the difference between Monotype and Inglis ?

Barrels -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e77169ec-1.jpg

Sliding butt group/Lower -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...51fab820-1.jpg
Three pointers,machining to rear of the lower on Monotypes is MKI fashion with more material removed - marked in dark blue.
Machining to area by sear pin is different - marked in light blue.
UK F.Tibbenham butts have slips in the wrist of the butt,Inglis butts don't - marked in orange

ATB KG

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Originally Posted by Kev G

Tom,hope the pics below help to point out the difference between Monotype and Inglis ?
ATB KG

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Kev,
Thanks! That is exactly what I am looking for...... ;-)

So....that at least gives me a mission now.....find Brit parts to match. Or not. Since this is primarily a shooter for me over here, it probably doesn't matter.

I am more inclined to keep the mis-match parts as they are, but at least now I am educated to know what to look for on the lower housing. For barrels, probably be straight luck as over here, you take what you find......as I am finding......having gone looking for parts, barrels, etc. , the last few days. I cleaned out IMA the other day of the last of their nice condition spare Mk II barrels, so its time to beat the bushes.

Just to stir the pot.....and create abject horror on the part of traditionalists......I spent most of today working up a magazine conversion for my intended 7,64x54R conversion. Barrel and bolt work seems to be easy, but the mag issue keeps raising its ugly head. So, I spent the day thinking outside the box.....and decided to go with a modified DP-28 pan mag! Best of both worlds it seems, and won't block the iron sights as it is not too tall. I have so many extra pans for my DP's that I found a donor and milled off the receiver adapter portion and set the CMM machine and digitized the needed areas, then spent about 3 hours lengthening it in the CAD drawing to fit the BREn magwell, measured from a cut parts kit section I have here. Tomorrow I am going to draw up a biasing plate to hold the front end of the DP pan securely and figure out where it needs to be tied down. Once I get the CAD done, I am going to print out a plastic 3D model and try to hand fit into the parts kit section mag well area and see where we are......really, it should work.....just machine the new block and TIG it back to the bottom of the DP pan. I have a great loader for the DP pans so it would very nice if I could make this work. There's just some thing about a DP..... ;-)

-TomH

Polish DP-28 @ July 4th celebration - YouTube

As Peter will tell you, at FTR or repair at a workshop parts were replaced without regard to manufacturer of the parts. They'd grab whatever part was next in the bin.

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

As Peter will tell you, at FTR or repair at a workshop parts were replaced without regard to manufacturer of the parts. They'd grab whatever part was next in the bin.

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Correct!

When Small Arms went through for overhaul. They were generally don 50 at a time of the same type of Weapon. So, EVERYTHING was stripped down to the last pin, spring Etc. ONLY the vital matching numbered components on a Bren.
IE: Barrel, Barrel Nut (Barrel locking Lever to you!) Breech Block, Receiver & Butt slide would be kept together. As they were matched & serial numbered. Also, if it was an LMG 7.62mm Variant. The Piston extention was ALSO kept with these parts.
As it too, was serial numbered. Peter as mentioned in a previous Post. Serial numbering the Butt slide was superfluous really. As TBH, the only 'Fitting' of it, really involved. 'Does it slide onto the receiver without binding'?......

If it didn't (Unusual) it was generally a Burr, or warped/ bent slightly.

Even during the Out Inspection phase. It WAS at times, the case. That the Barrel was slightly loose, with it's Matched & serial numbered Barrel nut (Locking Lever) due to in service wear.
in which case, the normal procedure. was to select the next barrel nut size up. Check for Headspacing & easy barrel removal & replacement. If it was Ok, then it was ENGRAVED (They were TOO hard to stamp. Without ruining/ damaging number stamps!) with that particular weapons serial Number. Rephosphated again, Suncorite spary painted. Oiled & fitted to the Gun.

Racks & racks of LMG's /Brens were churned out during My Time at Command Workshops. & Peter will also attest. That was a weekly occurance there at Warminster!

When repainted, Oiled up & New/ Refurbished Wooden furniture fitted. a Bren/ LMG Really DID look magnificent!...............:thup:

Okay......I just found out the serial number to this incoming Mk II.

Serial number is: T3129

From the above pictures showing a 1942 date and 'D' Daimler/Mono body marking......now with this added bit of info, who can tell me anything about it from that and this serial number.....??? ;-)

-TomH

T3129 will be late 1942, say September/October. Others may be more precise.

I look upon Bren Guns as akin to magnificent old ladies, likje your mum or grandma. Ladies that deserve all of the dignity and respect that you can bestow on them. When I see of Brens being messed about with in a way that is unbecoming, I think of lions in a zoo or performing in a circus.

After having been in action with a Bren (OK, albeit back in the middle ground where you'd expect the REME to be) you form an attachment to these magnificent beasts

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

When I see of Brens being messed about with in a way that is unbecoming, I think of lions in a zoo or performing in a circus.

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Respectfully noted, Sir.

I sense I may have touched a nerve with my recent discussions of caliber conversions......rest assured that I have no intentions of carving up either a Bren in the flesh, nor any of its hallowed history or honorable memories.

In fact, we're probably closer than you might imagine in our desire to honor and maintain that heritage of these great pieces. Where we diverge is only in the practice of our mutual religion, in this regard. I am reminded:

Oscar Wilde claimed that "(the) Americans and the British are identical in all respects except, of course, their language".......in this case, I'd alter that to the way we practice our preservation and honor of military relics. To me, the very best way I can honor this Bren Mk II that I have coming here soon, is to take it and do exactly what it was designed to do with it......shoot it. Being able to still shoot such a bit of history here is way more than just an accident of my living here, it is holding onto the actual value of these historical memories, sampling them, drinking them in in all their intoxicating form as you see, feel, hear and smell all the virtues these living history articles can communicate.

So, please make no mistake, trying to find ways to keep these fine relics running as they were intended is no dishonor on their heritage, nor on the people that made them, nor on the circumstances and dark times that forced their making and use.

-TomH

Update- Transfer has been approved, I should have the Mk II here in my mitts around August 7th!!

Pictures and videos to follow, appropriately.

-TomH