Retro Commando pistol (UPDATE)

Well, I got it done finally. The finish is John Norrell's Grayish-Black Moly Resin. It was easy to airbrush on and then just stick it in the oven for one hour at 300 degrees. I put the Colt SP1 carbine in the photos for comparison. I will soon start the SBR paperwork and once that has been approved I'll lose the SB15 pistol stabilizer and install an Essential Arms retro two position coated aluminum CAR stock. Can't wait to shoot it! What are your thoughts? :thup:? or :thdown:?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2818d82a-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f8327025-1.jpg

Two thumbs up, Bill.

Three thumbs once you get a proper stock on it!:)

It took me a second when looking at the stock...now I see. I've been wondering up to now what the story on that great huge...well, you understand. Looks great. And once you get the right stock on it...

Though not an AR guy, I recognize badazz when I see it. Thumbs up...

Ugh! If you were still in Kalifornication, you would have a couple felonies, even being a retired LEO

Thanks guys! I'll be taking it out today to test drive it. I'll post a range report later.

I'll bet that shoulders pretty well, especially with a more square stance.:)

Yeah Stevo it shoulders really nice.

Okay fellas, it fired 30 rounds from a genuine Colt magazine without a malfunction. Next, A windowed P-Mag and a number of failure to eject resulting in double feeds. After about 10 rounds I transferred the remaining 20 or so and put them in the Colt magazine and still had a number of the same failure until empty. Last round held the bolt open.

I have a few thoughts on this and one being an overly strong buffer spring or maybe too heavy of a buffer. Tomorrow I'm going to take it out again and try the three different brands of ammo, buffer spring and buffers. I'll report back. Thought?

What weight buffer in it, Bill? I don't imagine the spring is relevant. I've never seen different weight ones advertised.

New or used BCG? I've had inconsistent malfunctions like that with worn out gas rings.

BCG is one I had and the rings were new. I'll have to check the weight on the buffer.

Edit:
The buffer is 3 ounce.

Standard carbine weight, then.

What brand ammo? Were the FTEs stove-piping or still on the bolt face? Or something different?

Gas tube and FSB still pinned and in correct position? Rifle well lubed?

Factory Remington 55 gr and Black Hills 62 gr. Yeah, all of the above and they double feed. I did some research and it seems all the 11.5 SBRs and pistols are using the H (3.8 oz) or H2 (4.6 oz) buffers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

Factory Remington 55 gr and Black Hills 62 gr. Yeah, all of the above and they double feed. I did some research and it seems all the 11.5 SBRs and pistols are using the H (3.8 oz) or H2 (4.6 oz) buffers.

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Not all.

My 10.5 and 12.5 run standard weight buffers. In fact, both are underweight by a couple of tenths of oz. Never had an issue with either, except when the gas rings were worn out.

The heavier buffer will help if your bolt is bouncing from moving too quickly from being over-gassed, otherwise it should just make recoil feel a bit softer. Was it operating "violently" when you experienced the FTEs?

No, it was running quite smooth and what I felt as mild.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

No, it was running quite smooth and what I felt as mild.

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That makes it sound under-gassed. It can't hurt to try a heavier buffer if you have one, but I'm kinda stumped so far.

IMO, when they don't run, ARs can be almost as frustrating as M14s having accuracy issues. All the bits are tuned to work when everything else is in spec, when something is off it can be hard to find.

If Stoner had included an adjustable gas regulator in the original design, most of the AR operating issues could be easily addressed.

Bill, bring along the wife's polish AKM that way when the AR acts up at least you can have some reliable fun...;)

Sorry, had to go for the low hanging fruit!!!....:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stevo

an adjustable gas regulator

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I had a gas tube with an adjustable system from Dlask. it was sure a neat feature. It had been included because the BBL was 11" and had been over gassed. I had no end of misery after changing the configuration until I welded the gas port closed and started again. The Regulator was a simple block with an allen screw...

WarPig, you're bad ;)

Thanks guys I will keep you posted on my progress. I'm taking is out and doing some one shot magazine drills with it to confirm the bolt holds open on each one.

Bill, some of the no-name M4 stocks come with really heavy recoil springs. I would try a Colt from Midway or Brownell's. I picked up a NIW M4 GI buffer spring and my carbine works great. Heck, for that matter, try the spring and buffer from you Colt SP1 carbine.

Okay, I went out today and fired a number of one shot from the magazine drills and it functioned flawless on five different magazines. One round in the magazine fire and the bolt holds open. After doing this a number of times I put a full Colt magazine, one I had done one shot drills with, and it jammed on the first round. Failure to eject resulting in a double feed. The empty case still on the bolt with the live round trying to feed from underneath. I cleared the jam and fired the remaining 29 rounds without a problem. I fired three more 30 round magazines with the same rounds and had no issues at all (119 rounds). I thought maybe, just maybe it needed to work itself in but that all changed quick. Figuring the jam problem was done I loaded five rounds into each of the five 20 round Colt magazines I had with me to sight the gun in. The first magazine went great. The second jammed the forth round in as did the rest. I got the gun sighted in and at 25 yards it's perfect! During all this I changed the gas rings, extractor, extractor spring and cleaned and inspected the bolt and bolt carrier. Nothing to be seen!

If I get a chance this weekend I will swap out the BCG with a known working gun and give that a shot. Otherwise, I'll wait for the heavier buffers and test them.

Side note: the ejected casing land at about 2:00 O'clock from aiming point and out about 15 feet.

BTW, Problem child buffer and buffer spring above and genuine Colt SP1 carbine buffer and buffer spring below.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2e49277a-1.jpg
I don't have a scale to weigh the two buffers but what I can do is take this matching set and the BCG from the SP1 out with me the next time and give them a test go. :)

I hate intermittent problems.:banghead:

Stevo, I think I will wait for the two weighted buffers to arrive and take it out again and test fire it. It acts as though the it may be right on the cusp of enough, not enough of a weighted buffer. We'll see. Thanks for the help and interest.

I agree, it's almost right. The empty not coming off the bolt face, but the bolt going far enough rearward to start feeding another round is a real stumper. Especially since it's running such a high percentage correctly and ejecting them to a proper distance.

Was the gas tube new for the build? (I'm grasping here. ;))

The gas tube was from a CMMG I turned into an Adams Arms piston so it is used but was in really goon condition.

And the gas key is tight and staked?

Yes it is and aligns perfect with the gas tube.

Well, that exhausts my AR troubleshooting tool kit.:(

ejector issues?

The spent casing is being pulled from the chamber but is not ejecting every time causing the false double feed with the live round trying to feed while the spent casing is still in the bolt face. On another forum a fella suggested this fix: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-E...%20upgrade.htm I'm not sure I understand how this will help???

Before I do anything I'm going to swap a known working BCG and see what happens then. Then I will try the different weight buffers when they get here. Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I will keep you posted

That link is dead for me. What product is it?

Extractor upgrade kit with five coil spring, rubber plunger and an "O" ring.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jpg13347-1.jpg

Might do the job. Though it seems like it should be more likely to be the ejector.

Bill, with the case not leaving the bolt face, it may be the ejector spring. I had one that snaped, then spiraled down within itself. Needed a dental pick to get it out.

I agree it has to be the ejector, you say you changed that though? The spring that is...the ejector it's self usually doesn't fail. When they're working, you can't get a case to stay put on the bolt face.

I'll go through the bolt and check it close this afternoon. I'm off to the gun club to shoot some trap. I feel lucky today ;) Maybe I'll shoot 75 straight!

While you have the ejector out and if you find nothing obviously wrong like broken parts check closely for burs on the bolt face around the ejector port opening or on the ejector itself. Also run a pipe cleaner or brush down in the port to remove any contaminate build up and brass shavings that may be hiding there.
All AR ejectors I've seen have flat faces with sharp edges and possibly even tool marks that can and often do shave slivers off the case head when the bolt cams to lock up. These slivers sometimes work their way down in between the ejector and bolt body and can cause intermittent sticking and FTE's like you are experiencing. I had this happen a time or two with my 6.8 AR until I stoned the ejector face to remove the tool marks put a slight bevel around it similar to the M1 carbine ejector. Had no FTE's since.

Well today we went out shooting and I took the BCG from my Colt SP1 and ran it in the shorty and it worked flawlessly! Then I swapped the bolt carrier back to the original shorty using just the Colt bolt and it ran perfect. There is something wrong with the bolt. I put new rings, extractor and checked and rechecked the ejector and ejector spring and they look perfect but obviously something is wrong there. New bolt time!

Maybe...but I'd just trouble shoot it...you know you can sort it out.

I am currently making a XM-177 Clone but I am taking my time on this to do it right . My concern is here in Ca. we have to permanently pin and weld the suppressor on . It has to be 16 in long but finding the correct looking FH to make it legal is the hard part. I read on another forum that the gas port hole needs some work depending on the barrel length. If the barrel was chopped to 10 inches the person stated it must be opened from 0.080 to 0.093 . I have a JT 10.5 light weight so do I leave it alone ? Once I pin and weld that FH on it would be real hard to modify the Gas Port hole. Also I think a Bird Cage suppressor might not have enough umpf to work the Gas System. I read in Frank Campers book L.R.R.P. where he took off his Suppressor on his CAR-15 and replaced it with a Bird Cage before a Mission. After the no contact mission he went to the range to shoot his modified Carbine. Yep he said he had a bolt action Carbine. I've kept that story in mind while doing my project. Just a thought .

I do not believe the 10.5" is the correct length barrel for an XM-177 clone. Also, with the 10.5" barrel you can't use an XM-177 flash hider to obtain a 16" overall barrel length. The XM-177 flash hider is 5.5" so the correct length would need to be 11.5". Also, 11.5" does not require a gas port size change where the 10.5 may or may not. As for the bird cage flash hider not having the umpf to create enough allow the gas system to work correctly I don't see any issues with using one. That is what mine has. The way mine is set up it functions flawlessly with a standard run of the mill Colt SP1 bolt. My Commando's issues are because of a malfunctioning bolt not a gas port size. If it were then it would not run any better no matter what bolt it had in it.

Check your math, Bill.

10.5 + 5.5 = 16. 11.5 + 5.5 = 17. :)

Your need at least 1/2 inch overlap for the threads. A %.5 on a 10.5 comes up 1/2 inch short.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Your need at least 1/2 inch overlap for the threads. A %.5 on a 10.5 comes up 1/2 inch short.

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Ah, of course.

Is there a longer original style flash suppressor available? I've seen XM177 clones on US boards described as having 10.5" barrels.

Sorry, forgot to mention the .5 of threads. :o

Found this picture that shows the 4.5" and 5.5". The 4.5" being the genuine XM177 "moderator" and the 5.5" being commercial.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0016108E-1.jpg

That commercial one looks just over 5".

Must be used on an 11.5" to avoid the tax man, then?

Yeah, I don't know for sure however I did find that the XM177 "moderator" is actually classified as a suppressor and requiring registration and the "tax man"!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger

the XM177 "moderator" is actually classified as a suppressor

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That's true, even stated in the book, The Black Rifle, I think. That's why they had to stop shipping the little moderators out of country.

Historical interest aside and for a shooter, I think I'd rather have an 14.5" with an A2 on it. More velocity in pretty much the same size package without the excessive blast and flash.

You could get a 14.5 inch pencil barrel, get a Bushmaster "slip over flash hider, which I believe has about 1.5 inch in front of the threaded portion, and pin it on. I had a 16 inch with a slip over, and it was too long. 16 inch gives you about 3100-3150 fps with 55 grain, but the 14.5 ives you 2900 fps and 11.5 gives you about 2750. It takes 2550 to 2600 fps for the USGI M193 to fragment and tumble effectively. That is why i went with the 16 inch M4 barrel on my carbine build.

Here is a build I did for my son about 4 yeras ago, though he later went with a birdcage FH.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...XM177E2b-1.jpg

That's a nice little lightweight package there.

I prefer a more standard carbine now too, M4gery...

Attachment 52397

Update 4 May, 2014:

Okay fellas, I bought a new YHM bolt and took it out this morning to run it through it's paced. It passed with flying colors! This little weapon is so danged awesome! I really do love it! It ran two 30 round Colt magazines without a lick of trouble.

Were we talking about this bolt problem before? Are you going to rebuild that bolt too? Shouldn't be too big a problem.

Jim, the bolt components were discussed but not specifically the bolt. I will pick up one of those bolt refresh kits with ejector, ejector spring, extractor, extractor spring, extractor plunger and gas rings and go through it. I'll have a good spare then. I suspect the ejector spring in the culprit even though it measures the right length. I'm just happy it is up and running good.