Mystery SMLE (to me) Help ?

Hello all, I have been a 1903 Springfield collector for 50+ years but recently received my first SMLE (with disassembly inspection privileges.)

Dragged out my current edition of Skennerton (lotsa info but terrible organization) and tried to puzzle out this rifle.

It was rebuilt in 1954.

The serial # on the bbl and receiver ring is 11.

The bolt and magazine are serialized but don't match 11 or each other.

The buttstock is 2X walnut, has no disc, has 3 broad arrows along the bottom one has a letter on each side. All I can be sure of is the one to the biggest arrow's left is an "L". The wood is almost undinged at all.
The buttplate is darkened brass and appears like NOS.

The lower stock and two piece upper handguards are beech and pretty crude.

All I can make out on the action rear ring around the stock is a GR crown, III (no star) and 1917. It is set up for the magazine cutoff (slot and screw hole) but no cutoff.
The receiver's left rail is electro penciled that is was rebuilt in 1954.

The front receiver ring has ENGLAND stamped into it

The barrel is covered with proofs @ the breech. I can make out BSA, a GR mark, several broad arrows and "54". (there are a lot more)

Rear sight is no windage WW I style. Nose cap is also numbered 11 but has no hole for a swivel or cutouts to adjust sight windage.

The bore is 8 on a scale of 10

With it came a Lithgow 1918 bayonet & scabbard with almond shaped frog. It is blackened and the handle appear new marked LAZ 56.

The asking price for all is $550. Do I have a correct rearsenaled rifle or just a pile of parts that is not worth messing with. ?

I see walnut upper and lower front ends can be had. That and getting the 10 layers of black paint on the metal down to one would make a nice looking rifle but ….. as with 03s tossing money into a mess is just not worth it.

Thanks in advance.

Photos would be helpful.

Ive never thought skennertons books were poorly organised.

For my mind, if the serial on the receiver and the bolt don't match, then it is a NON-matching rifle, full stop, no matter what other numbers line up.

Ian's books are only confusing to those who don't know where to look first. They are concise, but sometimes not all armourers marks appear in them
As been said, if advice is sought a few photos would be helpful, especially as you seem to be quoting a mass of numbers, most that do make sense.

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Originally Posted by Maxwell Smart

For my mind, if the serial on the receiver and the bolt don't match, then it is a NON-matching rifle, full stop, no matter what other numbers line up.

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Unlike the Germans, the British (mostly) only numbered the receiver and the bolt (sometimes the magazine and odd bits of woodwork as well) and as you say the receiver an bolt are the ONLY numbers that count. All the rest will be inspection marks, dates, etc.

A has been said the OP needs to post pictures. :)

When I got my "Fianna Fail" rifle it also looked like a "bitsa" and was in dire external condition. But internally A1.

Posting photos on this forum soon produced the encouraging evaluation that it was a genuine arsenal rebuild for Ireland, hence the FF on the knoxform.

Which all goes to show: you MUST post GOOD photos showing ALL marks. Your photos will then be evaluated by a large number of the best Enfield-tuned eyeballs in the world.

Thanks folks.

I have created a public Photobucker album that you can call up by pasting into your browser or clicking on it.

Smle Photos by rocketcity1 | Photobucket

If you double click on any thumbnail, it will enlarge enough that I hope you can make out the markings.

Looking forward to finding out what it is. :D

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Originally Posted by Beerhunter

Unlike the Germans, the British (mostly) only numbered the receiver and the bolt (sometimes the magazine and odd bits of woodwork as well) and as you say the receiver an bolt are the ONLY numbers that count. All the rest will be inspection marks, dates, etc.

A has been said the OP needs to post pictures. :)

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Are you referring to all SMLE production?

As I said there is a serial # (11) on the front receiver ring, the barrel and the nose cap.
The bolt and the magazine are also numbered with different numbers..

May I request you folks with knowledge, take a look at the photo bucket album I made ?

I attempted to photograph every marking on the entire rifle.

Thanks !

Okay, you have the "good photos". What else is needed ?

Just a couple of answers for the time being :

The rifle is a 'mismatch' (as I think you knew) - the important two numbers that should match are a) the action and b) the bolt.

The "England" is the pre-1968 USA import mark to show country of origin.

The "2.222" 303 18 tons per sq inch" are UK civilian proof marks required when it was sold out f service into the UK civilian gun market.

The forend looks to be a little worse for wear.

"Which all goes to show: you MUST post GOOD photos showing ALL marks. Your photos will then be evaluated by a large number of the best Enfield-tuned eyeballs in the world."

I posted the photos, now I await the eyeballs.

Smlemon, I tried but couldn't access Photobucket with my dial-up connection. Going from your description and noting that Alan doesn't seem to like the rifle much, I think I'd pass on it. A relatively common rifle like that even with sound woodwork, matching numbers and a bayonet is probably worth less than $400. Hope that helps a little bit.

I've taken the liberty of bringing over some of the pics.
A couple more of the markings explained

FTR 1953 was conducted by BSA and was a 'Factory Thorough Repair' (refurbished)

The NP marks are UK "Nitro Proof" marks.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d8bfc99c-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9cc36f34-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3524e428-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...333b089c-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...80515a97-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...867cc14b-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...551d695a-1.jpg

Thanks, that's a good start. I am impressed with the bore condition, the very fine walnut, buttplate and bayonet. I do wonder at all the markings between the GR crown and "III" are missing or filled with paint. Numrich does have all the front wood in walnut, the cutoff and screw, and volley sight.

The ones I see on the web for sale are almost all Mk 4s or III* models and the floor is about $500. I was told the bayonet alone is worth $150.00 True ?

There were a couple of flat new Mk 4s for $12-1300.

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Originally Posted by smlemon

The ones I see on the web for sale are almost all Mk 4s or III* models and the floor is about $500. I was told the bayonet alone is worth $150.00 True ?

There were a couple of flat new Mk 4s for $12-1300.

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Are they for sale at those prices or "SOLD" at those prices - $500 is about UK prices which are generally about 40%-50% higher than US prices.

$1200-$1300 - they must be something special for that, or the seller has no idea of the correct market price.

Forget about the Volley sights, your rifle would never have had them, you could refit a cutoff & even a windage rearsight but thats about it if you want to keep it correct for 1917

Still not great photos but it looks like a typical 1953 FTR to me. Why would you want to pull the forend off and replace it with walnut? Is there something wrong with this forend?

I wouldn't try to restore it to 1917 because its been refurbished in 1953.

If that was my fore end on a 303 I owned I would scrap it the copper thrust plates are gone and the draws are smacked to pieces all the other stuff markings etc the forumers will offer advice as they will probably know what the A-11 means, you may want to clean all the crud off it so you can get good clear pics especially the date on the wrist strap we cannot see it.
As one of our forumers says it as it is this rifle is a bog standard FTR - 1953 at BSA with a stuffed fore end.
What type of bayonet is the maker those marked and good early ones like JAC (James Arthur Chapman), Chapman, Vickers, MOLE, Lithgow, Wilkinson (Pall Mall marked under the name) command a reasonable price especially if they have their correct scabbard.

My 1916 Lithgow H barrelled and H stamped on the top of the Butts wrist and 5MD (Western Australia) stamped on the stock and action cost me a miserly $100.oo AU had a few small issues but all up cost me $300.oo transitional mag, and all correctly stamped safety catch complete and a Wrights 1916 sling has windage sights and a cut off (This may or may not have been fitted outside the box) cheap as dog poop just a bit lucky.
The 1916 5MD Lithgow 07 and 5MD 1916 Lithgow scabbard was a different beast to get...

No copper recoil blocks as its a BSA FTR not a Lithgow one, the poms never fitted them, if the cutoff slot is exposed with the woodwork on, then it may well have had a cutoff fitted at the FTR otherwise it would have a high wall forend fitted i would think.
The A11 is the serial number.

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Originally Posted by 5thBatt

No copper recoil blocks as its a BSA FTR not a Lithgow one, the poms never fitted them, if the cutoff slot is exposed with the woodwork on, then it may well have had a cutoff fitted at the FTR otherwise it would have a high wall forend fitted i would think.
The A11 is the serial number.

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Yes mate that could be right about the cutoff. T/box did mention that in some very recent post in another thread but it came as a surprise to me and I still have some doubt. I really just wanted to make the point to the OP that cutoff or not, it would be pointless to return it to 1917 spec when it's clearly marked FTR 1953.

Well Cinders, your quick to condemn the forend considering they are not making them anymore. I see a forend in need of some attention or repair, not one that's completely stuffed. I suspect you'd be throwing a lot of forends away with that view.
Photos are small in my phone, did I miss something?

No I have a qualified stock maker Ken Davis in Perth fit up all my weapons back to spec except for the T which was in a bad way and had to do something a tad different I have 3-4 complete stocks for the III's and 4's that I own as my wood working skills are pretty abysmal, and then I would have to put them through the tile fire mind you that could be dangerous as well. :D

There was a mob over east I think making new fore ends out of beech but have not seen any for a while they were doing the top woods as well for the III's......

If you look at the pic seems to be contacting at the rear left side of the action, with no contact on the Rt side rear if you have an I phone you can enlarge the pic by just placing 2 fingers on the screen and dragging them apart, pretty smacked draws but Peters draws solution would remedy this, appears to be O.K bedding wise in the mag well but can only see the left side.

The split near the collar none of my rifles have this so I will ask the forumers is this detrimental or was this caused by the action moving back with the collar under recoil due to the draws being worn and splitting out the piece behind the collar.
Sorry if I sounded Negative that was not my intention at all I was just looking at it, I mean if you look at the draw area the left side has a larger black contact area than the right could the stock have a warp upwards on the left side as the right draw has no marks on the bottom shelf part.
Anyway sorry if I gave the impression I turf stuff out I don't much to my wife's disgust have a good day.

I have to agree with Cinders here. At every workshop level there comes a time when you have to scrap a fore-end and start again. And looking at this one, I'd be writing on the work sheet:
'Fit replacement fore-end and range test for accuracy'

The asking price for all is $550. Do I have a correct rearsenaled rifle or just a pile of parts that is not worth messing with. ?

I think you can now ( maybe) guess the answer.

Yep, It was mailed out this AM to the owner.

Have a faux 03A4 project underway as well as a Mauser Werke 1900 M41 Swede project.

Have found a couple of "still in the wrap" SMLEs for $1000+ as well as an engraved wannabe Speed Lee on GunsAmerica.com

Thanks for the help, I'll find one someday soon.

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Originally Posted by smlemon

The asking price for all is $550.

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Seems overpriced to me, for a rifle that you are going to be putting more money into.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smlemon

LAZ 56

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Would that perhaps be (S)LAZ(ENGER) ?

Agree, it's tossing good money after bad. Found a flat new MK 5 for $1300, not cheap but no restoration either. First gotta pay for the M41 scope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I have to agree with Cinders here. At every workshop level there comes a time when you have to scrap a fore-end and start again. And looking at this one, I'd be writing on the work sheet:
'Fit replacement fore-end and range test for accuracy'

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I suspect you won't be seeing this rifle in a military workshop anytime soon Peter.