Sten gun marking

Been reading Peter's Sten gun book with great interest, that it got the juices flowing that much that I bought myself a deact Sten to examine and compare. The Sten in question being ex Finish army stock, has the usual Finish features found in Peter's book, sling swivel attachments on stock and barrel nut and large ball cocking lever. I noticed that my Sten has the rolled mandrel formed body which was quite unusual, I also noticed that there is a small logo on the trigger housing, a small circle with the letters at the top inside B W 4 with 11 underneath any one know the logo. The stock is marked with a very small F with the number 15 underneath. The magazine housing has a serial number starting with the letters AG and the manufacture is B&T. The barrel is has the alignment sighting mark, otherwise an interesting piece.

On a last note which most probably comes under myths and fiction section. I seem to remember reading that a load of 9mm ammo captured from the Italians during the early part of the North African campaign was part of the deciding factor for the Sten to be in 9mm, maybe a load of old b.

The well thought out sten chamber was designed so as to accept all(?) 9mm ammo from across Europe so that captured ammo could be used. But there is a price to pay for that of course.

I'm sure that your description opf the markings is good - but not as good as a decent photo! As for the BW mark, this usually indicates a Base Workshop repair mark. A photo will probably elicit the answer

Here are some pictures.

Those are makers marks including the N7 that you'll probably find in the book - hopefully! As is the B&T in photo 6. The FG serial numbner prefix indicates a gun assembled at Fazakerley. The line on the muzzle was put there to mark the TOP, after zeroing. The barrel could be rotated during zeroing and the MPI of the group closest to the aiming point at 25 yards would be indicated by marking the line at the top of the barrel. Thereafter, when the gun was stripped and cleaned, you'd assemble it with the line on top and you'd be back at the best zeroed point. Simple eh! I bet you wish all guns were as simple to zero as that. Mind you, the tern 'zeroed' was rather looose when it came to Mk2 and 3 Sten guns.

Incidentally, was at a wedding yesterday of Michael Lines, the grandson of the LB owners of the factory making Mk3's

Yours has the rolled mandrel body as you mentioned, but it was different from the ones that were recalled. Note the spot welds on your trigger sideplates, which hold in the re-enforcing. There should also be an added plate to the inside of the housing to complete a portion of the "tube".

The recalled, and consequently destroyed stens had the mandrel formed bodies as well, but lacked the additional sideplates and re-enforcing on the trigger area. They can be easily identified by the washers added to the outside of the trigger plates in the area of the change lever, in order to get it to the right dimensions to accept the normal change lever. These stens tended to be weak and would bulge the tube around the front area of the trigger plates.

It's always enjoyable looking at the myriad of markings and minor variations to these guns.

If yiu were starting on a run of rolled tube Stens today I'd have the 'seam' as such at the cocking handle slot. That'd mean that once you'd punched the various openings while it was flat, then rolled it round, you'd only have to weld the rear inch, an inch or so ahead of the slot up to the ejection opening and then an inch forward of that to house the barrel seating. NZ did something VERY similar. Similar but more difficult........

Interesting replies many thanks for your comments.
looking closely at the serial number i realize that the F is very lightly stamped looking like an A.
The following pictures show a non standard fore sight which is welded in place, it looks as if its short of the dove tail recess, not sure if this is a Norwegian mod. This fore sight has no dove tail but made straight. Looking at the drawings in the book the dove tail side nearest the front, barrel side, looks to be part of the tubing rather than the solid barrel nut housing (looks like a slight design fault if relying on the dove tail fit), were there wider fore sights to fit in-case this happened and a new dove tail side re-cut or did they just weld in-place?
Picture showing the trigger guard shows the guard narrowing from the width of the trigger housing and yet i have seen trigger guards the same width of the trigger housing, any reason why? Would it be much cheaper to have a straight trigger guard than a tapered one.

The dovetail housing was cut into the casing but got its strength from the barrel nut bush which is also the barrel seating, fitted inside the casing at that point. That is clearly an afterthought by the Norwegians or whoever. We had foresights available as spare parts. And they didn't look like that monstrosity! Trigger guard........ narrow, wide, tapered........ It's just a trigger guard and manufacturers were permitted to make best use 9of their manufacturing facilities already at hand

There seems to be a few slight variants of parts for the sten gun ie two types of trigger guard, mag release catch etc.
The dove tail is cut so that it sits half and half in the barrel bush and tube body, the tube body thin as it is, is not as strong as the barrel bush itself. I suspect why they broke off. As for the foresight I suspect it's Norwegian, something that I would like to change or even make a new one up.
Anyone have a spare original foresight for sale or workshop drawings of the original.

More than likely the original forsight would have been a 2 piece construction. Two pieces back to back and the bottom was flared to make the dovetail, the examples I have had the tip of one of the pieces cut off to make it a little finer. I'll have to see if I can get some photos. The other type used by LongBranch, Enfield and probably the earlier gun were machined from solid.

As for trigger mech covers, there are numerous versions, pressed and welded, the earliest having 2 holes for 2x 2BA fixing screws, another with the 2 holes and 2 dimples and another with just the dimples. The mag catch had 2 versions, the Mk1 was made from 2 parts riveted/welded/brazed together and the Mk2 was simply stamped from a single piece.

Attachment 52050

Attachment 52051Attachment 52052Attachment 52053Attachment 52054
From reading Peter's book I believe these are all the early type parts.

Interesting variations. Still on the look out for a dementional drawing of the fore sight, if anyone can help or point me in the right direction.

Is that a finger guard in photo 1 Gary? There was a clip on finger guard for the Mk3 gun but after learning that the breech block wouldn't actually chop off a finger, just severely batter and bruise it (learned the had way, by accident.....) such trivialities didn't last long.

As for a foresight Topp, you can easily scale one up from Gary's photos. I wouldn't worry about zeroing too much. It was a bit like the No2 revolver......... Zeroing, such as it was, was aim up or down a bit - or left or right. Or a combination of each!

Yes, Peter it's a clip on finger guard. I got it from a vendor in Canada (it's C broadarrow marked).

Attachment 52144

This is a pretty rough DIY drawing in 'Paint' so it may not be of much use. I did find some differences in dimensions on mine. These dimensions are from the simple back to back sheet steel sight, each sheet being .9" thick so I guess it will be a standard SWG probably. The dovetail is formed by bending the bottom of each sheet in the appropriate direction. I'd imagine the solid sight will have similar dimensions.

I just realised I put the wrong dimension across the top, instead of .8" it should be .18" and the overall height should be 0.532" not .32"

Many thanks for the sight info, much appreciated.
On my Sten, the trigger guard cover is a clip on model but also held in place with the two 2vs screws as well, is this normal?

You must have the 3rd type cover with both dimples and 2BA screw holes.

The gun would have originally had either the 2BA holes or the holes for the dimples. As Peter has said, if an armourer had the dimpled cover but not the screw type, or vice versa, they would modify the gun or cover to fit. If you have the holes in the gun for the dimples then you can put the screws away for some other use and just clip the cover on. If you just have the screw holes, then you need to screw it on.

Just a quick one on the measurements, the width of the sight is 0.8660 or 21.9mm and the foresight pointed blade being 0.694 or 17.62mm at the base, the two sides measure 0.58 or 14.73mm x 2, this calculation would exceed the sight width. 0.694 - 0.8660 = 4.37mm about 2.1 either side. Is this correct.

I've redone it in MM as I should have known not to do it at night! Maths and tiredness don't work together for me!

Attachment 52160

Many thanks again.

Had a chat to a friend who has a deact Sten gun which has an original fabricated number 2 sight which i copied, made from two pieces of sheet steel 2mm thick and spot welded together. picture shows original in friends sten and the sight i made ready to be bead blasted and refinished. Quite simple to make than a milled version.

That's the one I was on about, you can see why it's easier and quicker to make than a milled one. All the ones on my STENs are welded into place by a dab of weld in the centre front side.