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A lot of pictures I can see about the N°4, show the rifle equipped with a 1907.
But I also read that a Bren sling could be use. I'm using my Lee n°4 with a 1907 since a few weeks and my grouping at 200m is improving drastically.
A Bren sling is a web sling, with no loop in which you can fit your arm. How can it be better than a 1907?
Is there anybody who gets pictures showing how to use the Bren sling with a n°4 MkI?
Thanks
Much has been written about the Bren sling Lou. It doesn't get slippery and is as versatile as the leather one - but it is a matter of preference left entirely with the sniper. I suggest that you read all of the sniper threads and a little book about the rifle
The book PL is referring to is An Armourers Perspective: .303 No. 4 (T) Sniper Rifle and the Holland & Holland Connection By Peter Laidler with Ian Skennerton (you can try Brian Dick or get onto Skennertons site for this book if he has them they are getting scarce.)
Also get the Telescope Sighting No. 32 An inside view of the Snipers rifle telescope By Peter Laidler (Brian may have some they are popular and sell quickly you will get 99% of your answers with these 2 books) :cheers:
Nifty little tome. Nice picture the components of a web sling option too. :thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
I think the 1907 would be best under normal target shooting circumstances - the bren, as Peter says, was chosen under very wet conditions as it was less slippery. Definitely recommend Peter's Armourer's Perspective book if you own and shoot a T - and packed with anecdotes and information about this kind of stuff.
Thanks for the answer.
I already read this book An Armourers Perspective: .303 No. 4 (T) Sniper Rifle and the Holland & Holland Connection By Peter Laidler with Ian Skennerton
Instead of an Armourers Perspective, I'm looking for a Shooters Perspective.
Nowadays, I don't go at war in moistness. I go to the range, when it's not raining.
So, for a shooter like I'm, if I set a Bren sling, how do I have to set it on the rifle and around my arm? Does it give an advantage compared to a 1907 sling.
Thanks
Lou
snipers - and just good range target/competition shooters I suspect - are taught by their mentors how to use the sling but at the end of the day Lou, just like the snipers and target shooters, you use whichever sling is the best, most versatile and most comfortable for you. No one can actually TELL you, you juts see what you like and adapt to suit.
I use a No4T and L42 (they're getting big and heavy now....., so being a wuss, I use an SA80) and always use a long Bren sling because........... Well, it suits the low scores I have come to expect and constantly fail to achieve!
The real competitive shooters and snipers here will all have different ideas
Hi Lou - good question for the pictures of the Bren sling in use - I have not seen any either. When I shoot (and mentor) a sling of some sort is always present - but I find it only benefits when other elements are in place (posture / natural - aligned position and aim point etc) - sounds like you are on that journey at 200yds - have a competant instructor / mentor observe you! (mine advised longer follow-through and it worked!). There are photos in period hand books that cover how to use the 1907 sling per a sniper rifle use / sniper training (also posted in the forum somewhwere). These instructions are good enough to interpret and configure the Rifle / Bren slings to suit. -focusing on the trigger guard swivel and position / tension of sling around the upper arm in the prone position. Other uses can include wrist wraps and arm loops - featured in a photo entry by a member last year - back to the searches... - these can be acheived with the web slings too, just like most other sling types - the length becomes a factor tho - hence the Bren version. I do shoot in the rain (and snow) and do so with leather or web (thats my choice / preference I guess) =P14, No4Mk1 & Mk2 and L1A1 - so is using the repro slings and saving the real ones for display :) ) - I attribute about 1MOA improvement typically from a sling when I shoot - enough to notice when its not right, but not a game changer...instead of twiddling with the sling I go back to Foundation (contact with objects / ground), Alignment of bones / posture and neutral to PoA Position. (various terms for these around the world). More importantly using a sling allows me to conserve energy when making each shot to maintain group size over 50-60 rounds and 4-5 legs in competition and provides good tension in rapid fire to quickly recover natural PoA. Constantly twidding with the sling in position can be exhausting - the opposite of what I want - so pratice getting into the sling right first time and then go with it!. Also some comp guys add expensive gloves for their forehand (protection from the sling) and "glue" (stickum type stuff) themselves in position - not for me and I think the sling comes before these anyway :madsmile:but i digress...
Come on Peter you did not spend all that time working on them and not learn to be a good shot, me I am just a typical Aussie, Line 'er up, BANG now where the bloody heck did that go! I the originator of low scores using a 308 Omark at 900m getting 10 misses and also missing the 2 sighters 12 misses for a grand total of 0 out of 50 now that is something......a really low score :dancingbanana::madsmile::lol:
I do agree, a good sling is the cherry on the cake, it is not the starting point for shooting. Before a mentor tells me to use a 1907, I was using the regular Lee Enfield web sling that was fitting my n°4 since 1944. I was at 175 pts/200 on a French target for service rifle competition at 200m/218 yards.Quote:
but I find it only benefits when other elements are in place (posture / natural - aligned position and aim point etc)
Since I swap to the 1907, my last score was 182/200. By changing the sling, I gained 7 points, the rest is as described, position, breath under control. But, to me, this is not the one that has to go with my Lee, that's why I've ask for a different solution, a bit more British style, to respect my rifle.
The yellow line shows my aiming point, I have to zeroed again because I changed the powder for this shot.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6935e11f-1.jpg
Enclosed a training target, I did better after, the bullseye is 6.49 inches width, the "9" is 6.49 inches width and the black zone is 16.53 inches width.
My Lee Enfield is equipped with the MkII backsight and is 100% unchanged since 1944.
Nice shooting Lou! You know the order that these were made - what do you make of the diagonal pattern? (am thinking "wheel of pain" type feedback). It would be interesting if you included the shooting position, timing of shots (rapid / slow etc) and any load info with weather conditions..
Here are some of the links (from searches) mentioned earlier...there may be more..
How to sling the No4 Mk1(T)
Using the British canvas sling for shooting purposes.
um, my front sight went lose last time at 600yds, I think I might have got a 1 on the wrong target......LOL...
:madsmile:
regards
By the way, iIt is considered that the two point sling using the front and "sniper" type ring as mount points causes less flexing of the forestock. Not sure if this is true but here in NZ there seems to have been a "standard" tuning method of replacing the lower forestock with a harder, stiffer wood.
Could you develop, please?HTML Code:"wheel of pain"
I did that in prone position, with a 1907 sling. I was training for an official competition, opened to service rifle.
Rules are simple :
5 rounds for trial, 5 minutes.
10 rounds 7mn (the picture)
10 rounds 3mn
No scope to verify the impact during the 2 series of 10 rounds, that's why I drifted in the "7" without being able to say when was it.
I'm only working on the improvement of the ammunition, my rifle is like out of the box.
My .303 are made with: case PPU, balls PPU "selected, (weighted mainly) 174gr, primer CCI200, powder N150 vitha vuori 2.70g (41.6gr), speed 710m/s (2329ft/s). I also use Tu 5000 (French powder) that's why the POA may change.
My training emphasis the technic, I practice a lot of dry shots (I save money and I'm focusing on technic).
Thank you for the links, I will look forward for a king swivel in a near futur.
Cheers
Hi Lou.
The front trgger guard swivel will help a great deal - as per the "T" models and instructions - all of my No4's respond well to that an a firm front hand grip - my P14 likes a lighter grip and butt swivel hasty sling in prone.
With the target as shown and the load that produced it, I would adjust up 3 clicks on the Mk1 sight and use a BDC hold. I would term both groups of 10 as slow fire and would do a closed eye test every shot or other shot to check alignment of position. Are you shooting from a full mag, or an empty mag with charger loads? The latter need practice not breaking the forearm position (especially elbow location) while loading - how many times do you observe two groups of 5 to substantiate this?
The "wheel of pain" is a target that gives coaching ideas by direction of pattern, if all good practices and other variables are well (thats a long list) - but its still only a guide! Most prolific are the pistol versions - the rifle ones are rarer - and both are handed... I have to dig my good copies out..
The basic one (not considering sling and assuming right handed) would indicate that moving up and left can be follow through or flinching, if it is moving down and right it indicates that it could be a trigger jerk or a forehand issue - elbow not under the rifle, grip too tight.
I believe there is a version that includes the effects of the sling.
All IMHO - hope this helps!
None of them, we have to shot two series of 5 rounds. It means that we have to reposition after the reloading.Quote:
Are you shooting from a full mag, or an empty mag with charger loads?
I'm not working so much on the hand grip, at least, there is a way of improvement.
Thank you L1A1 breakdown for this "debriefing". Next time I go to the range, I will go with a copy of this post and I will apply.
I'll keep you advise of my improvements.
Cheers