Got RUST? It's easy to remove, here's how.

This post is for guys who might not know how to deal with minor rust/pitting on small parts or the action/barrel. The thing with rust is it NEVER sleeps and needs to be dealt with. If our goal is to preserve these weapons for future generations rust can't be left to eat away, slowly but surely the metal. Rust is NOT patina so don't feel bad removing it.

You only need a few things. Rust/blue remover, any brand of cold blue, Q-tips and paper towel, alcohol, Dremel with a wire wheel
Attachment 52436
Rusting Mosin Nagant handguard springs.
Attachment 52437
First, card the surface rust off with the wire wheel then/or just apply rust remover to the spot with a Q-tip, carful not to get runs!! The rust that's left turns black which means it's dead and the blue around it is removed as well. Card this off with the wire wheel. Should look like this.
Attachment 52438
Cold blue is good for small touch up jobs not blueing a whole rifle. Follow the directions on the bottle of the brand you choose. Usually it takes 3 applications to get good color. There can't be any oil on the part or the blue won't take, alcohol is a great degreaser. Your done!! Oil the part and it's good for another 100yrs.
Attachment 52439

If the rust is "light" (surface), another trick is to use fine steel wool and Kerosene.

Blueing is essentially a ceramic coating and is hard, but VERY thin.

Steel wool is not as hard as blued steel but will slowly lift the "pale" brown surface rust and often leave a "darkish" area behind.

DO NOT USE "Scotchbrites" or similar. Yes, these will remove the rust in a grand fashion, but, because the little green plastic fibres also contain embedded Silicon Carbide particles, they will also remove blueing like magic.

Commercial "rust converters" from the hardware store are also murder on blued surfaces; though they are actually handy for stripping a complete gun with a bad blue job.

I wouldn't agree that the 'rust' that is left and turns black is 'dead' warpig. It is still oxodisation - or rust for want of a better term, in another form. But 'dead' it ain't and as soon as oxy and moisture in the atmosphere get to it, it WILL return. I'm not a metallurgist or a corrosion engineer but I wonder if JM will/can explain this in greater depth.

We used to bead blast some absolutely dire, dripping with rust No5's and L1A1's and unless they were thoroughly down to 'the white', they'd be back

Rust blue is just that, rust. A solution containing nitric acid was applied to the steel, put in a humidity cabinet to speed the rusting process, and then taken out and immersed in boiling water to stop the rusting and turn the red rust into black oxide. When the steel has dried the rust is removed either with fine wire wheels or steel wool. The process is repeated until the desired blue color is achieved. This was probably the most widely used blueing process up until the hot caustic tank blue came into use about 1930. Remington Arms used rust bluing up until the mid 1950's.

Whether a rag and oil, steel wool, bronze wool or whatever to remove rust, the thing that will remove the finish is the rust itself. It is very abrasive, and whatever is used must be kept free of the rust particles.

I had no idea any of the blueing processes gave a ceramic coating.

Thanks for that chemical clarification Johnny. We all seem to forget that the blueing and certainly the bluieing or blacking on the Enfields was simply controlled corrosion - or rust!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I wouldn't agree that the 'rust' that is left and turns black is 'dead'

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True, poor word choice on my part it still needs to be removed.

I think a bit of clarification might be useful for beginners in rust removal. What follows is a gross simplification, from the point of view of a serious chemist or metallurgist, but it will serve for our efforts to restore rusted chunks of metalwork.

The surface known as "bluing" is a very thin layer of ferrous oxide, FeO, a black substance. The "blue" arises from light passing through the semi-translucent layer, which is very, very thin, and therefore fragile. Thicker layers are dead black.

Ferric oxide, Fe2O3, usually found in the hydrated form, Fe2O3.H2O, is the our common-or-garden RUST. This can also be written in rearranged form as Fe(O)OH, which indicates how it can be broken up.

Electrolytic rust removal is therefore doing this
Fe2O3.H2O ----- 2FE + O2 + H2
In other words, free oxygen and hydrogen are produced at the electrodes.
Obviously, if substantial quantities of the hydrogen and oxygen were to recombine – thanks to fire or an electrical spark for instance, the result could be explosive. Hence the general safety advice to keep your electrolytic cleaning bath at a low level – generating bubbles, but not boiling away! And in a well-ventilated area, of course.

The finish-friendliest way to remove rust off old gun parts is to use electrolytic cleaning. Accompanied by ultrasonic cleaning to remove loose particles, it will clean up corners that are in accessible by mechanical means. Search the forum for my contributions on "electrolytic cleaning" and "Anschutz" and you will find a good example of the use of this method.

I.M.H.O. mechanical methods (wire wool, wire brushes etc) should be regarded as a last resort.

Yes, Electrolysis has its place just not in this case and IMHO most cases. The time it would take to setup an Electrolysis bath and have it do its magic I could have ordered a "new" spring and a few spares but I'm a cheap bustard. If I had a rusted 1873 Colt, now that's a different story but a rusted butt plate screw on a RC K98 or the above spring is just not worth the effort and I wouldn't use cold blue on the Colt either but that's beyond the scope of this thread. Absolutely though, Electrolysis is an option.

Agreed, it depends on the value of the part you're treating.

BTW

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Commercial "rust converters" from the hardware store are also murder on blued surfaces

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I think these are typically based on phosphoric acid. I once dunked a slightly rusted old die in a cup of that stuff, and forgot it for weeks. When I finally took it out of the "rust remover" it looked as if it had been parkerized, having developed a matt grey surface. Rust gone - polished surfaces gone as well.

By "ceramic" I did not mean like your Granny's tea cup, but essentially a metal "oxide"

For example, Aluminium is soft, but its most common compound, Aluminium Oxide, is spectacularly hard and fairly inert. It is technically a "ceramic".

The entire point of blueing is not to make your guns look pretty, but to form a thin coating that, being porous, holds oil. The film of oil is what stops your toys going "brown and crunchy".

Parkerizing without the pre-blast will likewise produce dismal results on hardened alloy steels.

If you strip all of the oil out using some nasty solvent, the OTHER rust will appear frighteningly fast, especially if you live in Florida or coastal Queensland.

"Parkerising", which used phosphoric acid and a few additives, does the same. The difference is that successful "Parkerizing" requires that the steel surface be "activated", usually by grit or bead blasting.

If you bead / grit blast and then "blue", you get a lovely satin / matt BLACK finish.

Parts made from "interesting" modern alloys that have been hardened by heat treatment may need this "pre-treatment", by blasting; otherwise they will come out of the blue tank looking like THAT book: ........Fifty Shades of Grey................, or purple, or whatever.

Parkerizing without the pre-blast will likewise produce rather pallid results on pretty much any steel.

Early in 1945 Ordnance allowed Colt to switch to Parko (Parco)-Lubrite which was a manganese phosphate finish. At about the same time Colt discontinued the sandblasting of the slide before finish, and also did not sandblast the top of the receiver. Since the top of the receiver was no longer sandblasted, Ordnance did not require Colt to polish the finish off the feed ramp as had been previously required.

Pictured below is a Colt 1911A1 that dates to April, 1945, and was finished in Parko-Lubrite. The slide was not sandblasted, but the receiver was. The difference in the finish is hard to see until view close up where the effects of the sandblasting on the receiver is evident.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/r10nxk-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5/vngos5-1.jpg

Distilled white vinegar removes rust great. Takes some time but it gets it pretty clean. Also removes bluing however so not good unless it is a small part you plan to refinish. Vinegar is all I used on that Swedish Mauser I brought back from the grave.

And it's cheap. $2.50 for a gallon of the stuff and I only used about half a gallon on the Swede and that was a full barrel dip.

How fast does the vinegar remove bluing? BTW, vinegar is good for killing pet stain odor.

I didn't really time it as the rust was so heavy I soaked things over night and all day with some scrubbing in between. If I remember correctly, the bluing would be gone in an hour or so.

The end result is very clean metal. although if you don't treat it quickly a grey form of oxidation will start.

Cheap is good, clean metal even better!!...

I wished it was that easy to keep rust at bay on my old 1972 MGB they rust for fun.....

It's a BL product......

MGB's were made from a special water soluble steel that came from Llanwern steelworks to Swindon, by deck cargo on a submarine. Living in Shrivenham during the 70's and at Abingdon in the 80's we'd see MGB and C roadsters and GT's plus the little Midgets being transported in the bare unprotected white metal, 12 to a lorry along the A420 road from Pressed Steel in Swindon to Cowley in Oxford. Then, after the bodies had been assembled with doors and bonnets/boot lids, they'd be brought by road to Abingdon for another round of assembly. This tooing and froing took place in all weathers. And I mean ALL weathers. Sleet and snow and driving rain plus sun on the occasional sunny day.

You couldn't make it up! No wonder MG cars were rusting out before your very eyes and BL were losing money hand over fist on each car! But y'know what? I still love 'em to bits. I just wish my VW's were as simple to maintain

After reducing or removing the rust and having touched it up or gone for the full parkerizing then have a good think think of the oil you will apply, there is a very interesting article in the Journal of the HBSA regarding protective surface coatings for firearms, the Royal Armouries (Leeds) now have changed there cans of WD40 for BrunOx oil and have ditched 3 in 1 as its no longer considered an ideal lubricant.

I,ve said it many times but an old book that covers many solutions for bluing etc is : Firearm Blueing and Browning by R H Angier

Various acids have been used to derust. Obviously they remove blueing just as easily... Acetic acid has been mentioned (vinegar, I use 20% as a cleaner), citric acid, oxalic acid and boric acid have their proponents. I have to buy cheap rusted guns so I use an oxalic acid soak followed by a brief citric acid dip (to remove the green chelated iron surface left by oxalic) and then a wash with a weak sodium bicarbonate solution just to kill any acids. Don't let the oxalic acid drip onto any wood. It is used as a wood bleaching agent.

BTW. The reason why 1970/80s Fiats, and especially Lancias, rusted away so fast is the the old Soviet Union had no foreign exchange to pay Fiat for the factory they built in Russia so they paid the bill in steel. Sadly it was steel made from unsorted scrap so it was like a sheet battery with all the dissimilar metals in it.

My older brother had a succession of Fiat 124 Spiders, all with rust problems that stemmed from Fiat unwilling to put any finish at all on unexposed areas e.g. inside the door panels and posts. So there was bare metal where condensation or water could reach it. Poor quality control. My latest car restoration is a 1965 Fiat 1500 Cabriolet and even though it is about as rust free as Fiats get, it still has rust holes in the rocker panels just in front of both doors. Sorry for the car talk on the firearms forum. Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

I think a bit of clarification might be useful for beginners in rust removal. What follows is a gross simplification, from the point of view of a serious chemist or metallurgist, but it will serve for our efforts to restore rusted chunks of metalwork.

The surface known as "bluing" is a very thin layer of ferrous oxide, FeO, a black substance. The "blue" arises from light passing through the semi-translucent layer, which is very, very thin, and therefore fragile. Thicker layers are dead black.

Ferric oxide, Fe2O3, usually found in the hydrated form, Fe2O3.H2O, is the our common-or-garden RUST. This can also be written in rearranged form as Fe(O)OH, which indicates how it can be broken up.

Electrolytic rust removal is therefore doing this
Fe2O3.H2O ----- 2FE + O2 + H2
In other words, free oxygen and hydrogen are produced at the electrodes.
Obviously, if substantial quantities of the hydrogen and oxygen were to recombine – thanks to fire or an electrical spark for instance, the result could be explosive. Hence the general safety advice to keep your electrolytic cleaning bath at a low level – generating bubbles, but not boiling away! And in a well-ventilated area, of course.

The finish-friendliest way to remove rust off old gun parts is to use electrolytic cleaning. Accompanied by ultrasonic cleaning to remove loose particles, it will clean up corners that are in accessible by mechanical means. Search the forum for my contributions on "electrolytic cleaning" and "Anschutz" and you will find a good example of the use of this method.

I.M.H.O. mechanical methods (wire wool, wire brushes etc) should be regarded as a last resort.

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I use the electrolysis method for removing rust from alot of different items. It removes rust from gun parts without removing the bluing. I've heard though that it causes hydrogen embrittlement and shouldn't be used on things like receivers and barrels. Supposedly you can solve that by baking the item in an oven for something like four hours, after rust removal.

And for those in Britain:

Shield Technology - Guarding Against Corrosion

Claims to remove ONLY rust and also "cleans and brightens" brass and nickel plating.

Anyone up for a "consumer report"?

Found an ad for the stuff in the British "Woodworker and Woodturner" magazine. ( Good Woodworking Magazine and The Woodworker Magazine )

Now to find similar in the antipodes.................

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Now to find similar in the antipodes.................

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Naval Jelly looks to be the best candidate.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

Naval Jelly

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It does work marvelously...

I have found that soft brass brushes sold for horology are good for removing surface rust and embedded crud without touching the blue..!

In UK these are obtainable from Meadows and Passmore in Brighton.. they look like large toothbrushes, and are made from pure brass - not to be confused with brass plated steel. You need to use them with a light scuffing motion - you must not scrub as this bends the bristles and knackers the brush..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

It does work marvelously...

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Does that stuff remove the bluing as well? I've used Works bathroom cleaner to remove rust but it contains hydrochloric acid, so it removes the finish.

I used it on things that were past having blue, so I can't measure by them. I think it'll strip to the white though.

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Originally Posted by TexasCheesehead

Does that stuff remove the bluing as well?

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Yes, to the white..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

Yes, to the white..

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Not sure if I'd like that. That shiny white might hurt my eyes. :yikes:

I had zero luck with naval jelly. Poured it into my carcano bore and it appeared to accomplish nothing, even after leaving in for half a day.

I think you'd have to do some scrubbing.

Can't explain that one.

I did scrub it. I plugged the barrel, poured it in, ran a brush up and down to make sure it was filling without air pockets, left it sit for a couple of hours and brushed it out. Didn't seem to do much so I did it again and left it in there for half the day. No improvement and the color of the jelly never changed. Maybe it's the brand: Loctite Naval Jelly. It did not instantly remove bluing either. In fact it didn't do much to that either in the time I was running the brush. I was very disappointed.

Maybe find another brand of naval jelly...?

Was that Carcano made by FIAT?????

LOL

No. I suspect it's the brand. I put some on a bayonet to clean up the blade and it didn't do much to it either. Paid $9 for this stuff so I'm not real happy.

It's Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver. Only ingredient I can find is phosphoric acid. Says to not use it on chrome, aluminum, stainless steel or painted surfaces. What will it do to chrome? Remove it? I have some chrome I'd like to get rid of. But since it doesn't dissolve rust, I doubt it will do that either.

It would dull the finish of chrome. Make it a flat silver.

I know it works on a 870 barrel with a matte finish. Maybe not so good on polished steel? I feel a highly non scientific study coming on for this rainy weekend. Where's my lab coat!!!...results to follow....

Ok, this is the handle from my Rockchucker it has a nice blue job over polished steel.
The Naval jelly was used on the top half, Birchwood Casey on the bottom the tape separates the two.
The metal was degreased with Acetone and the jelly applied first.... Ah, screw it!! It worked just fine. Can't explain why it didn't work for you Aragorn.
Attachment 55162Attachment 55163
Attachment 55164Attachment 55165

OK, I admit my ignorance. What is naval jelly?
I deduce from the correspondence that it is not a kind of food served up on board warships.

In the previous post it looks as if the upper(jellied?) half has been slightly etched to create a matt finish.
The lower (Birchwood Casey) half has preserved a better surface.

No, not etched Birchwood Casey just did a better initial job. Naval Jelly should be left on 10 minutes longer then I did. Both where treated, left to sit for 5min or so and then rubbed with 00 steel wool soaked with the respective solution,,, scientifically applied of course.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

What is naval jelly?

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I don't know where it came from...:dunno:

Naval Jelly I believe was/is a compound used by the navy to keep rust off deck items. Supposedly etched things slightly so paint would adhere better but that's just something I've read somewhere.

I did not degrease with acetone. I've been spraying all sorts of oils, rust disolvers, break free etc down the bore. So I assumed that might be the problem with my first failed attempt. The second I scrubbed the barrel with dish detergent and rinsed before pouring the naval jelly in.

Perhaps it is pitted so badly that I'm not getting all the oil and crap out and that is hindering contact with the metal/rust. I don't know that I have any acetone around. I'll take a look.

If it's badly pitted you're going to have a job getting it all clear. I even tried bead blasting the rust out with little effect.

... when you can do it delicately:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....t=electrolytic

The double-set trigger shown here would probably have disappeared into dust if it had been bead-blasted. Well, not quite, but it certainly would not have had any sharp edges left!

As for "Naval Jelly", I dug around and Henkel/Loctite reveals that it is, as suspected, a brew that contains phosphoric acid. I once tried cleaning an old screw-cutting die with that stuff, and forgot about it for a couple of weeks! It developed the same slightly matted look that I commented upon in my previous post.

So that is OK if you can tolerate a slightly parkerized look on your metal. but not if you want to clean up an originally polished surface. without spoiling it.

Just my 2c of course. but I submit that brute force is not necessary!

I gave the naval jelly a second chance on a berthier bolt head and it did work on this so it seems to remove rust from French steel but not Italian steel.

Used another product called PB Blaster and that worked pretty well with a wire brush. I've used it before but as it has a rather unpleasant and permeating smell, I don't like it. But after about an hour, I have all the metal parts of a Berthier fairly well stabilized.

It does dissolve rust and starts instantly. It's a penetrating oil rather than an acid so it does not remove bluing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

PB Blaster

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Good stuff but yup it stinks....