Maltby No4 MkI* ???

Hi Gents,

Recently I came across this interesting No4 MkI* Enfield manufactured at ROF Maltby. I don't typically collect Commonwealth firearms so a few of the markings have me a little bit puzzled. The first aspect which is confusing to me is the presence of the *. I was under the impression that the Brits only manufactured the No4 MkI? My second question has to do with the fact that the rifle seems (at least to me) to have two serial numbers? Based on the fact that the bottom number begins with 2 my feeling is that it was put on there by ROF Fazakerley but the rifle isn't marked FTR so I'm wondering what's going on there? Could it perhaps have something to do with the BLR (Beyond Local Repair) marking on the butt stock? Finally I'll note that the bolt and mag are complete un-serial numbered. Un-serial numbered mags seem pretty common to me but what about the bolt?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

- Chris

Hi Gents,

Recently I came across this interesting No4 MkI* Enfield manufactured at ROF Maltby. I don't typically collect Commonwealth firearms so a few of the markings have me a little bit puzzled. The first aspect which is confusing to me is the presence of the *. I was under the impression that the Brits only manufactured the No4 MkI? My second question has to do with the fact that the rifle seems (at least to me) to have two serial numbers? Based on the fact that the bottom number begins with 2 my feeling is that it was put on there by ROF Fazakerley but the rifle isn't marked FTR so I'm wondering what's going on there? Could it perhaps have something to do with the BLR (Beyond Local Repair) marking on the butt stock? Finally I'll note that the bolt and mag are complete un-serial numbered. Un-serial numbered mags seem pretty common to me but what about the bolt?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

- Chris

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It is a No.4Mk1 as defined by the first version bolt release. It was presumably mis-marked at Maltby. These have been seen before and is an interesting variation.

The large AA or AL or GF etc etc markings/number prefixes are indicative of Indian State Forces

In my quest of a Lee Enfield n°4 MkI, I met a few weeks ago, one marked with the MkI *, without the notch to release the bolt, only the latch. Unfortunately I couldn't make pictures. It was coded like the one on the picture or M47c don't remember exactly. It was fitted with a brass butt plate and a Mk II back sight. The rifle was dated 1944.
For sure, the rifle I met,went in France in 1944 and never left it since then.

The miss-marked Maltby Mk.1s are a well-known enigma.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The large AA or AL or GF etc etc markings/number prefixes are indicative of Indian State Forces

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That's interesting. So are you of the opinion that this rifle was used by the Indians? If that's the case why does it not have an Ishapore Screw installed?

I'll admit that I'm not an Enfield guy, but to me it looks like a second serial number put on there by Fazakerley perhaps when it was sent off for repair (BLR) - the rear sight also appears to be Fazakerley manufactured. If you look closely at the butt plate you'll see a Canadian Broad Arrow.

According to Ian Skennerton:

"No.4 and No.5 rifle serial numbers can readily identify manufacturers. British No.4 rifles have five numbers, usually after one or two letter prefixes. The same letter prefix(es) were used by Maltby, Fazakerley & BSA Shirley, A to Z then AA, AB to AZ, then BA to BZ, CA to CZ &c. Maltby rifle serial numbers commence with a number '1', Fazakerley with a '2' and Shirley with a '3', e.g. 1xxxx for Maltby, 2xxxx for Fazakerley and for Shirley, 3xxxx, after the letter prefix."

I'm still puzzled as to why the bolt is un-serial-numbered.

It ain't got an Ishapore screw because it probable hasn't been or needed FR by them - where this event takes place!

Take it from me, Fazakerley wouldn't add another serial number and especially when the original one is still present!

I appreciate Ians comments but they refer to the factory serial number sequences. The AA in your case indicates - as I said

No number on the bolt. Simple, someones added a new bolt and not numbered it. Get it checked and then properly set up. But PLEASE......, by someone who knows what he's doing! It could be that it isn't a new bolt but a re-worked bolt. We used to get ten or twenty used bolts at a time hardness tested and then spun-off in a lathe to remove the old number so that they could be used again. We didn't waste much and the Indians certainly didn't!

I could be wrong of course........

Thanks for the reply Peter, I appreciate it!

I won't be shooting the rifle until it's been inspected by a certified gunsmith... With no serial number on the bolt I think it would be a good idea to have the head space checked out.

In terms of the AA marking, would you happen to know a) what the numbers attached to it signify and b) when this may have been done?

I've tried to research this marking but haven't been able to find anything credible on paper so perhaps you could point me in the right direction as it seems you're pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Enfields.

Hello Garand123,
Welcome to the sickness :)

Young Peter won't say this so I'll have to fill you in... if you saw where he worked, it could be said that he bathes in Enfields...daily.

Is that BLR on the wrist a "Beyond Local Repair" notation?

Edwards (Indias Enfields, 2000) makes the comment: " So many Savage manufactured weapons eventually entered Indian service that many Indian soldiers refer to all Rifles No. 4 as "American Enfields"". Could it be some that Indian armourers simply called every No. 4 they worked on Mk I*? Much like the similar No.4 Mk I" that are discussed frequently, we'll probably never know.

Ridolpho

Yes. BLR = Beyond Local Repair.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that assumption Ridolpho because Indian Armourers and their complete small-arms system was and probably still is, run along the old Imperial lines. Indeed, until the mid 50's, they were still trained in the UK or by the UK and certainly, their top Artificers were trained at Bordon until the early 60's.

Their EMER's are virtually a direct copy of ours and their VAOS system, such as the B1/C1/C3 etc etc grouping categories remain the same! Nope, an Enfield was an Enfield

I recently had a tour around Bordon with The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers to give us an overview of the Armourers course they hold there, very interesting place.

They're not even called Armourers any more. What a shame. The senior trade in the Army. The only trade that '.......in keeping with its historical and primary status, the term Armourer will precede the rank, ie., Armourer L/Corporal or Armourer Sergeant'. Not a lot of people know that and long forgotten even among Armourers. No long 3 year apprentices now PLUS a further 2 years on the job learning experience any more..................

From memory I think it was a 16 week course, 12 weeks general Engineering Principles & a 6 Week Armourers Course and the 5.56MM MINIMI LIGHT MACHINE GUN was not even covered on the Course.

I too recently purchased a Maltby No.4 MKI*
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The gun seems to have been through an Arsenal Refurbish, as the furniture is virtually undinged -- appears to all be replaced -- but no dates of Arsenal Repair or overstamps.

What does the * indicate? I've read through this earlier post, but did not get clear about the "*star." Note: The star is "six pointed" (the LB & SS MKI* are "eight pointed"). Was * added to indicate a refurbishment or was it original to the date of manufacture? Any new thoughts?
Thanks, Robert

We've seen quite a few of the Maltby supposedly Mk1* rifles. All I can think is that when this designation was being introduced as one of these '.....all further production rifles will be designated....... blah blah......' the message got to the production managers floor at Maltby who instigated it. Only to learn that this information instruction was just that, an information that told of Mk1* ( Mk1* is just a simplified way of advancing the original old numbering system of Mk1/1, 1/2 and 1/3 and so on) was the new designation for US/Canadian production only.

Saw one such 1* Maltby last Saturday that had been advanced to 1/2 in the usual way

Check the forearm especially on your rifle Seaspriter. A ton of that South African replacement wood was imported/sold in the past 20 years through commercial channels here in the USA including myself and it may have been fitted up incorrectly if not done "in service".

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Check the forearm especially on your rifle Seaspriter. A ton of that South African replacement wood was imported/sold in the past 20 years through commercial channels here in the USA including myself and it may have been fitted up incorrectly if not done "in service".

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Thanks Brian, I will take the fore-end and hand-guards off and check interior stamps, etc. when I get back home this weekend and report back. The Butt Stock is English Walnut. The hand-guards are beech. Not sure of the fore-end wood -- looks more like maple (no flecks) than beech, but seems a bit softer than most maple. I'll also check to see if the trigger has been converted to a MkII trigger. Would the barrel be always be replaced with a MKII upgrade?

Thanks for the insights

The forend is beech. I get a gut feeling it was a sporter that someone purchased the new wood for a restoration but I could be wrong. I wouldn't worry so much about the markings inside as I'd be looking at the fit in the draws and other bearings. It can't be a Mk.2 conversion because the Mk.1 forend wouldn't fit if it was. It doesn't sport the usual ROF(Fazakerley), conversion markings either.

PS, It needs a new rear trigger guard screw! ;)

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Originally Posted by garand123

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I think it would be a good idea to have the head space checked out.

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To be clear 100%, Peter L isnt talking about headspace (but yes it needs checking) he's talking about ensuring both lugs of the bolt are load bearing in the receiver, this is a different check. You can still buy brand new un-issued bolts for $30 odd so I assume this is one of these. Otherwise Peter also mentioned the bolt was spun in the lathe. This means any lathe marks left on the bolt handle left from removing the old serial number will be centric to the centre of the bolt, if they are "opposite" that would suggest an angle grinder or dremel tool used by bob the bodger. In which case it may have other nasties to uncover.

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Originally Posted by Seaspriter

Thanks Brian, I will take the fore-end and hand-guards off and check interior stamps, etc. when I get back home this weekend and report back. The Butt Stock is English Walnut. The hand-guards are beech. Not sure of the fore-end wood

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The forend is beech

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Brian, got home and checked the gun (before unpacking -- Enfield passion is powerful). You are correct, the forend is beech (the tell-tale flecks are on the side of the gun not clear in the photos). Here's what the close investigation revealed:
- Entire stock is virtually brand new -- never been in anything that would be close to battle conditions
- Barrel's serial number matches the bolt and receiver (I don't recall seeing serial numbers on the barrels of my other Enfields)
- Barrel is 5 grooves (is there a connection between 5 grooves and the * designation??)
- Hand guards are stamped with "P" inside
- Wrist is stamped with "N22" over the Broad Arrow (Is this "John Curtis & Son Ltd., Leeds")
- Forend is stamped with "U" and "138" in a box
- Import Stamps on Muzzle

Any thoughts? It seems possible this gun may never have been issued.

Is there a South African ownership mark stamped on the top of the breech or Knox? If not, I'd say it's been restocked since it was imported to the USA. The South African marked beech is wood that was available in quantity as replacement wood as I said before. The butts are still available in quantity from Springfield Sporters.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Is there a South African ownership mark stamped on the top of the breech or Knox? If not, I'd say it's been restocked since it was imported to the USA. The South African marked beech is wood that was available in quantity as replacement wood as I said before.

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Brian, thanks for your help deciphering. (It's a joy to have a Sherlock Holmes on my team.) Here's what I found on the Knox:
- matching serial number
- broad arrow
- N17(under crown) [does this mean pre-1954 import?]
- F5 [??]
- M(over)3 [Albion Pressed Steel Metal Co. Birmingham??]
- no "BNP" nor "England" stamps
- no "CG" or "SA" [South Africa] markings anywhere
Back to the Forend: Draws fit tight and true, but no serial number on top which might validate your replacement wood hypothesis.

So: some of the evolution of the gun may remain a mystery.
And someday we may find out the real reason why some 1944 Maltby Enfields get a "*" Star Rating.

P.S. I'll be back to you late next week via PM on the restoration of the LB Sniper

I'm no Sherlock Holmes by a long shot. I've just had hundreds of No.4's through my shop here since 1995!
N17 is a production code for Central Case Company Ltd., Sheffield
F5 and M3 are probably examiner's marks.
No commercial proofs visible. The might be under the handguard. No "England" stamp = post 1968 import to the USA
The South African ownership mark is either a large "U" Broad Arrow or sometimes a small one like on the underside of the forend. Usually stamped on the top of the receiver ring.

It's no mystery to me. I'm glad the forend is fitted correctly. I'll stick with my original assumption that it's been restocked at some point after it was imported to the USA.

Please email directly to bdlltd@bellsouth.net and not by PM. Thanks.

I took some crappy photos with my cell phone of one of my favorite rifles... a 42 Maltby. As far as I can tell, it's as it left Maltby. There is a rack number on the opposite side of the buttstock and from this rifles condition, you'd think it sat the war out on that rack.

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Edited to add the Singer magazine and follower.....
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Again for butt plate mark and to mention that the stock set is 100% Beech from end to end.
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Don't forghet that Maltby was built as a rifle factory to make the major assemblies buit to ASSEMBLE rifles with parts coming in from the outside contractors due to its industrial base transport links. It was also mooted as a Bren assembly factory too. It was well connected with the Coal/Mining industry and ......... anyway........ As soon as the war ended, so did Maltby pretty well as Coal took immediate priority over small arms.

What I am saying is that I very much doubt whether Maltby ever did make everything because it was simply one of the major assembler factories

Agreed, Peter. I know I've read that about Maltby from either your writings or Ian's over the years and maybe even from Brian. This rifle has a Maltby bolt, trigger guard and butt plate but that's about it. Everything else is from someone else. I've observed that many early Maltby rifles have early "B" marked BSA parts, such as my bolt head and cocking piece are. I have a 42' BSA that is in almost as good a condition as the 42' Maltby and also shares Singer, WL, AB, and S126 parts but I would bet it left BSA with them.

Not necessarily Spike. The pooled scheme operated across the board. And if the production control progress chasers found that BSA were running low on, say, sears, then they'd be shipped overnight from another manufacturer. Low stocks or even the danger of low stocks at the assembly factories was not tolerated. I learned this first hand while researching the Sten gun production which operated along exactly the same lines

Maltby rifles are often found chock full of Savage parts. It's obvious Savage sent lots of spares as well as complete rifles.