Metal Finish Question

I'll soon be taking delivery of my first Lee Enfield (a Lithgow SMLE Mk. III*) and had a question about the finish on the metal...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2747-1.jpg

Based on a bunch of others I've looked at this one appears much lighter. Has the finish maybe been stripped off the metal at some point? Or is that normal? I got it for a REALLY good price and it's just going to be a shooter so I'm not too worried about it but I am curious. Feel free to peruse the rest of that album to get a feel for what the rest of the rifle looks like. It's not yet in my possession. I'll take more/better pics this next week when it arrives.

Thanks!

Nice Lithy not that I'm biased of course. You might find it went to New Guinea and when you get it home test on an area not showing (covered by timber) with some acetone and it will rub off and the parkerising will be underneath.

Painting was an approved protective measure in the absence of the 'correct' browning or other rustproofing. However, later in the war a far better/superior method was tried and has been used ever since. Bead blasting, phosphating and hard bake painting

As mentioned before:

Zinc added to the phosphate bath will result in a grey finish; See M-1 Garands for example.

The colour and consistency is usually determined by the grade and "quality" of the grit-blasting before the phosphate bath.

Manganese will give a very dark grey / black finish.

Again, as with US goodies, long storage in Cosmoline will result in zinc phosphating taking on a distinct green tinge.

However, painting was certainly not unknown in WW2 Oz service. In fact it got quite fancy with the Owen guns.

By the mid 60's our Owen guns were all black although some of the parts and magazines came in a yellow/green paint. I don't know what it was but it was quite hard If I can did the old papers out I'll mention the exact khaki paint mix/spec that was to be used to protect the finish of guns. I remember the fancy wording, such as '..those equipments desirous of remdial protection notwithstanding the this that and the other......blah blah blah.......' and it had the word 'scamic' in it somewhere

Ok thanks for the replies! Let me make sure I'm understanding this all correctly... At some point this was painted over as a way to protect the metal from corrosion? Is it common for people to remove the paint from all the metal to reveal the finish underneath or do people typically just leave it?

Peter you mention "Owen" guns... I've searched the site and found some references to other guns but not SMLEs. What is an Owen gun? Also is that black paint you mention the same stuff I see on the '60s era Ishapore 2A1 rifles?

Attachment 53118 This is an Owen Gun...

Ohhh.... "our" in the national sense, not the "you and me" sense. Gotcha :)

Now I'm getting confused (common occurence). Isn't dangles rifle (at least the receiver) simply parkerized with either original or due to aging in grease light greenish tint. Both of my WW2 Lithgows have a similar finish which resembles the distinctly greenish parkerizing on my '43 1903A3. I know what green tropical paint looks like and it aint that.

Ridolpho

I'm with Ridolpho. That's zinc phosphate with no hint of paint I can see. I'm suspicious that one may not be original Australian phosphate but could be wrong. I'd guess it's been refinished post service. It obviously isn't hurt in my opinion but just doesn't look the right color for a Lithgow job. I've handled quite a few and have restored one or two! :)

Looks like that paint to me as it's worn off the bolt handle and other parts such as the trigger and rear of the guard to illustrate the difference. But I could be wrong!

And Dangles, yes. Painting was a wartine expedient to the usual 'browning' or 'blacking' which were an early form of hard wearing corrosion protection. But it was neither hard wearing or corrosion protection because it was nothing other than a form of controlled corrosion for want of a better term.

Where did you get the photo of the Owen BAR? That's ours from Warminster!!!!!

I stand corrected after looking at the complete set of photoshop pics. It is green paint which is worn off in places. Right as rain and a bit uncommon because it didn't hold up too well unlike black Suncorite 259! I had a Maltby No.4 once that had about 95% left on it. It obviously hadn't seen much service.

One interesting thing about Own magazines is that they appear to have originally been conventionally "blued" before getting their fancy "war paint".

Some years ago, a bunch turned up in the "disposals" stores. These were greased, wrapped in acid-free paper and then boxed in heavy cardboard "liners". They emerged with the "jungle" camo paint intact.

Austen mags, (and the whole guns), were similarly treated at time of manufacture and thus can be found with a similar paint-job.

I suspect that "basic black" became the norm because of the tender sensibilities of some "barracks" folk rather than any practicalities in the field.

The "interesting" thing is that, black is about the last thing you want your gear to be on the modern battlefield.

Black objects may be harder for the human eye to see in low light, but under night-vision gear, especially ones that "see" down into the infra-red end of the spectrum, black shows up rather well. This is because of the re-radiation of long wavelength IR.

Notice how modern camouflage uniforms are devoid of black?

The early US "chocolate chip" desert cams were very "Gucci", until someone noticed a disturbing feature: When viewed through NVG, wearers looked like walking Christmas trees. Note the somewhat more subdued patterns now in use.

It is also NOT a good idea to launder ANY combat clothing in any detergent that offers "whiter-than-white" results. These products contain "fluorescers" that convert ANY incident UV light to WHITE light. The effect through NVG can be startling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aussie48

Nice Lithy not that I'm biased of course. You might find it went to New Guinea and when you get it home test on an area not showing (covered by timber) with some acetone and it will rub off and the parkerising will be underneath.

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What gives it away as having been in New Guinea Aussie?

From memory Homer they were the only ones that were painted as I think Peter has said a war expedient, needed now not in a weeks time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aussie48

From memory Homer they were the only ones that were painted as I think Peter has said a war expedient, needed now not in a weeks time.

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Where did that come from mate? Here's an instruction manual for the application but no mention of it being for tropical service. I hear it said all the time that it is for tropical service but I'd like to know if this is true and if there is an official source.

Peter??

It was a general instruction exactly as shown in the original ACI as shown by Homer in thread 16 above. On that basis it was done wherever we were serving but to be honest, the biggest killers of the original finishes were the tropics where it simply never got dry so rust was a constant feature and the desert where the stuff was constantly sand-blasted - but didn't rust! ACI's were issued down to the Quartermasters and then Armourers shops if necessary but we also had SAI's (small-arms information) and AI's for Armourers Information sheets that were eventually incorporated into EMER's

I think we are confusing the painting yellow/khaki on Owens and the secondary protective painting of Brens and rifles khaki. Owens was because of the nature of the beast/terrain over which they operated and the Australian Army spec (although later they all went through the strandard phosphate/paint regieme) and standard small arms simply because they needed extra protection otherwise the just rot away before your very eves as I have seen on hundreds of occasions.

As soon as the large post war FTR plans got underway the old ACI was cancelled.

Thanks for all the replies, guys. So is it frowned upon to remove painted on finish like that? Would it even be worth it?

That paint fnish is only second best but if it ain't broke...........

Yeah I'd leave it. It usually comes off easy enough but it's all part of its history to me.

Oh man I just picked the rifle up from my gun shop and MAN am I happy with it! It looks much better in person! And the rifling is in great shape! The serial numbers don't match but I'm not at all worried about that. I'll take some more pictures in the next couple of days and post them.

Sorry for the late reply Homer have been working about 400kms from home. If you want the gen on the paint (N G) you need to talk to the Australian War memorial who have all the information, which is where I found it.