Bren Mk 2 Recoil Spring Issues

Greetings all. Question for the collective oracle. I have a 1942 Bren MK 2 (1942) rebuilt by Len Savage himself. It is chambered in 54R. Has had many issues with the main spring. His rebuild seems to use only one 3/4 in diameter sized recoil spring. When I get them from Len, they start out at about 12 inches however, after only a few hundred rounds they get crushed down to about 9 inches. I start having issues with light primer strikes and/or the trigger not resetting. I have also had issues with a couple of rounds going off with the same pull of the trigger. I am quite sure the springs he is using are too weak for the recoil on the gun. (even though I have the gas setting set at their lightest)

Does anyone else have a MK2 in 54R? I have seen other builds using two mainsprings (larger one and then a smaller one right over the metal guide rod jutting out from the butt and trigger assembly. Any ideas? Does anyone have a source for stronger springs? Ideas as to what might cause more than one round to fire at a time?

I have e-mailed Len a few times on this and he did send me more main springs, but I just keep replacing them and having the same problems.

Thanks,

Just from the metallurgical point of view, then this is definately(?) a spring problem. No 'spring' that is made from the correct steel wire that is correctly treated should compress from 12" long to 9" long after however many cycles you state. While we don't know the mechanical complexities of your gun, this doesn't alter the facts

As a matter of fact, I have seen a recovered Bren gun found buried on an old wartime landing ground just off the Salisbury Plain training area together with several full magazines with retuen springs that were still in serviceable, albeit not perfect, condition. The magazine springs sprung out of the base oif the magazine STILL under tension when the rust was scraped away.

Metallurgists out there comment please..... JM?

djandj,

The original MkI's had a single spring. They were replaced with the double spring. Later replacement springs for both the MKI & MkII were the double spring. Sounds like you have a bad spring. They should never compress that much. Light strikes may indicate a weak striker spring if the semi is striker fired.

I have a MKII I converted to 54R. It uses a striker set up. Gas settings 3 / 4. I put a 1" plug behind the return spring (double spring) so that the return spring was in full compression at the end of the stroke. The length of spring compression in the semi with a striker is about 1" short of the full stroke due to the length of the striker.


The specs for the double spring are:

Inner 90 1/2 coil Left wire dia .036" OD .358" Free length 13.2/12.8

Outer 68 coils RT wire dia. .048" OD .477" Free length 13.2/12.8


You can buy them here:

50: SPRING, return, Mk 1 - BRP CORP Store

BREN recoil spring

Joe

I don't think he is using the real Bren spring/springs Joe H as they rarely give trouble or compress with age. But.....

Just to clear up a bit of doubt here forumers......
The reason for the double return spring was to buffer the rearward action of the breech block and piston/piston post assembly during its rearward travel. and NOT to increase the loading of the forward action of the working parts. This was because they had recently opened up the gas port of the Mk1 barrel to make it a Mk1* and also the gas regulator holes to suit. When they did this, all sorts of problems arose........ It was chaos! Now, the piston post hit the unlocking cam with such brute force that it 'bottomed-out- the piston post plunger inside the piston extension, spreading it out and making it impossible to remove from the piston post plunger spring - which also broke regularly due to it now becoming coil-bound on the damaged plunger*! After this, the breech block hit the rear gun buffer plate with such force that it cracked/broke the plate away from the collar at the rear. Anyway, to cure all of this the double springs were introduced. You'll realise that the poundage required to START the rearwards motion is similar with one or two springs but thereafter it starts to show as it buffers. It obviously works because cracked buffer plates aren't a real problem. But that is why Armourers always polish them so that you can see any hairline fractures that are about to get worse.

* The breaking of the piston post spring problem was never really cured but was lessened with the introduction of the different length piston post plunger and adjustment of the depth of the seating in the piston post housing. Yes, that's why there are Mk2 variants of each! The broken piston post spring became a 'user' maintenance item and as such a spare was always in the spare parts tin.

Not a lot of people know that!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I don't think he is using the real Bren spring/springs Joe H as they rarely give trouble or compress with age. But.....

* The broken piston post spring became a 'user' maintenance item and as such a spare was always in the spare parts tin.

Not a lot of people know that!

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Peter,

Definitely not original Bren springs. Maybe they were wound using the wrong grade of wire.

Very interesting info. I wondered why a heavy spring like the piston post spring would be in the spare parts tin for user replacement.

Joe

See if you can get some good springs from Wolff Gunsprings. They won't steer you wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe H

djandj,

The original MkI's had a single spring. They were replaced with the double spring. Later replacement springs for both the MKI & MkII were the double spring. Sounds like you have a bad spring. They should never compress that much. Light strikes may indicate a weak striker spring if the semi is striker fired.

I have a MKII I converted to 54R. It uses a striker set up. Gas settings 3 / 4. I put a 1" plug behind the return spring (double spring) so that the return spring was in full compression at the end of the stroke. The length of spring compression in the semi with a striker is about 1" short of the full stroke due to the length of the striker.


The specs for the double spring are:

Inner 90 1/2 coil Left wire dia .036" OD .358" Free length 13.2/12.8

Outer 68 coils RT wire dia. .048" OD .477" Free length 13.2/12.8


You can buy them here:

50: SPRING, return, Mk 1 - BRP CORP Store

BREN recoil spring

Joe

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Fantastic info here Joe. See I definitely think that I am missing a spring. Shouldn't the MK2 have one larger 3/4" recoil spring and then a small diameter spring right along the guide rod? I only have ONE spring back there. Where is the striker spring supposed to go? Cause I think I don't have one.

Can anyone post pics of their MK2 disassembled with the springs in place? I'm pretty sure I have only one spring back there.

D,

There are two common types of semi conversion. Hammer fired which uses a hammer as part of the trigger group to fire the gun. It has no striker or striker spring. The striker fired semi uses a striker placed behind the carrier. It has a separate spring and is fired directly from the original Bren fire control group.

I don't know which type Len Savage builds. I doubt you are missing a spring. A weak return spring could cause the problems you are experiencing in either type of build.

Joe

Greetings:

I have many of Lens Brens... The Striker spring is the 3/4 inch by 12 inch spring that rides over the return rod and is immediately seen when you remove the butt group from the front/receiver. This spring is not original Bren equipment... and it has been added to the design to power the striker block forward to contact the firing pin when the trigger is puled The Original Bren recoil springs (if in fact there are two... as the kits used for these builds came with both singular MkI springs and the doubled up MkII) are contained in a tube inside of the butt stock...they load the return rod so if you can push it easily to the rear (into the butt) then this might be the first place to try and replace springs. The access point being at the rear of the butt. If your recoil springs are under powered then the bolt group is recoiling with much more force than required to reset the action and in the process is crushing the striker spring. BRP Guns in Maryland has new replacement recoil springs... or at least they did the last time I looked. Are you shooting 7.62x54r light ball or heavy ball ammo? If you are using heavy ball... I'd try some light ball and see if your new replaced spring performance is improved. Feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss in more detail.

Thanks again Wally. I have ordered the springs from BRP. Will I use BOTH the springs? (seems I should) May have to turn up the gas, but that is no problem. As is, I am running at the lowest setting. (higher settings crushed the springs much quicker and allowed the bolt group to slam into the butt with enough force to pop out the wooden spline!

djandj,

My experience with the semi striker Bren is that you will have to operate at the 3 or 4 gas setting with the proper springs whether using .303 British or 7.62x54R. The original FA Bren operated at the #2 setting. The semi has additional recoiling parts (the striker) and an additional spring to compress so it requires more gas.

Definitely use both springs. They are designed to work as one.

It would be interesting to see how yours and Wally's return striker spring is set up. At 3/4" OD and on the return rod, unless something is altered, it cannot go back into the stock with the return rod so it must compress as the bolt moves rearward. My striker spring is .35" OD and moves with the return rod into the stock. It compresses as the bolt moves forward.

Below is a typical set up (not mine), striker spring shown, return spring in buttstock:



Attachment 53330


Joe

New recoil springs will help... one of the design features of Len's semi conversion is the removal of the buffer... which would explain the violent recoil impacts against the rear of the lower slide... presuming that your recoil springs are weak or missing. I believe he did this to make more room for the striker to reciprocate. Adding a plug in the base of the return spring tube would add more "spring resistance to recoil." I have never had to do this but I've not put large volumes through my Brens. Another item might be that the barrel gas port has been opened up to much and is venting more gas than needed despite your low setting... another Len feature is that he has been known to drill out oversized the small hole in the gas regulator... so you might be using more gas than you would expect... you could obtain for little cost an additional gas regulator and determine if yours has been so altered or not. More gas was needed on some guns to overcome the resistance of the striker and the striker spring. I'm not proficient at posting pictures... if someone wants to... I can provide images of Len's design features for posting.

Joe:

Same geometry as in your picture... but the larger diameter spring has a larger socket cut into the striker to hold that end... and there is no buffer plate so the other end of the spring seats against the rear surfaces of the lower slide. All kept in place by the recoil rod. The striker spring does not enter into the stock and is compressed by the striker during recoil. I'm still thinking that either the barrel gas port or the gas regulator might have oversized holes and are contributing excess gas to this scenario too. If the gun has lost its recoil springs in the stock tube... I agree... the striker spring alone would fail rather quickly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe H

djandj,

My experience with the semi striker Bren is that you will have to operate at the 3 or 4 gas setting with the proper springs whether using .303 British or 7.62x54R. The original FA Bren operated at the #2 setting. The semi has additional recoiling parts (the striker) and an additional spring to compress so it requires more gas.

Definitely use both springs. They are designed to work as one.

It would be interesting to see how yours and Wally's return striker spring is set up. At 3/4" OD and on the return rod, unless something is altered, it cannot go back into the stock with the return rod so it must compress as the bolt moves rearward. My striker spring is .35" OD and moves with the return rod into the stock. It compresses as the bolt moves forward.

Below is a typical set up (not mine), striker spring shown, return spring in buttstock:



Attachment 53330


Joe

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Yep - my setup looks similar, but I don't have any spring in the butt stock - just one (larger 3/4 inch) spring. Len got back with me and is sending more springs(s) - I will report back. I also ordered the original MK II replacement springs so I may try them as well.

Thanks,

David

While I don't know anything about these single shot variants, I have to say that the 'hammer spring' shown in thread 11 looks totally inadequate, not man enough for reliability and doomed to failure. That's only my opinion based on absolutely nothing more than a deep mechanical understanding and many many years experience with Bren guns

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

While I don't know anything about these single shot variants, I have to say that the 'hammer spring' shown in thread 11 looks totally inadequate, not man enough for reliability and doomed to failure. That's only my opinion based on absolutely nothing more than a deep mechanical understanding and many many years experience with Bren guns

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Peter,

In the world of fully automatic Bren guns it would appear you are correct. Actually the semi-auto Bren works quite well with this setup. It is not obvious from the picture but in operation as the bolt moves rearward the spring does not compress but moves rearward into the butt-stock with the return rod. As the bolt and return rod move forward the striker spring is compressed since the striker is caught on the sear. The spring you see is not compressed by recoiling parts but by the return spring rod on its forward motion.

I doubt the semi version would ever be as reliable as the original FA Bren. Unless the semi's have the gas system modified there is no "reserve". I've drilled out a regulator and barrel to make the gas flow at #2 equivalent to the original #4 but due to knee surgeries I haven't got a chance to check it out yet.

Joe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WallyG.

Adding a plug in the base of the return spring tube would add more "spring resistance to recoil." I have never had to do this but I've not put large volumes through my Brens.

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Wally,

The plug doesn't really add additional resistance it just gives the same resistance as the full stroke FA Bren. The striker prevents the recoiling parts from reaching the rear buffer by the length of the striker so that the return spring is not compressed to its design compressed length. It is short by the length of the striker. The plug allows full return spring compression at the shorter semi stroke. It is particularly important in the design I used since the striker spring is compressed on the return.

Joe

Joe:

Thanks for the logic behind the plug... makes perfect sense. I'm thinking that djandj's problem is that someone removed the recoil springs from his butt and the poor striker spring is not up for the task of running the bolt and bolt carrier back into battery after being crushed by these same parts in recoil . Lens design uses the original recoil springs that are behind the return spring rod to cycle the gun. The large striker spring is only intended to drive the striker forward to fire... and being a spring... also absorb some of the recoil forces from the bolt group and striker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WallyG.

Joe:

Thanks for the logic behind the plug... makes perfect sense. I'm thinking that djandj's problem is that someone removed the recoil springs from his butt and the poor striker spring is not up for the task of running the bolt and bolt carrier back into battery after being crushed by these same parts in recoil . Lens design uses the original recoil springs that are behind the return spring rod to cycle the gun. The large striker spring is only intended to drive the striker forward to fire... and being a spring... also absorb some of the recoil forces from the bolt group and striker.

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Now see THAT may make some sense. I will check when I get home to see if there is a spring in the stock or not. But it sure does seem like my striker spring is eating all the impact as it stands now.

djandj,

Wow! possibly firing the Bren without a return spring. The way mine is configured the bolt would not return, but with the striker spring compressing on recoil as yours is built the striker spring could be doing the work of the return spring. It seems hard to believe that it was put together without the return spring but possible since a trial hand cycle may not reveal the problem.

Joe

OK - here is what I have. (see what happens when you get a rifle w/o a manual). Just realized that I DO have a return spring in the stock as well as the striker spring. However - both seem very week as setting the gas port to anything but the lightest setting will cause the bolt group to SLAM into the stock. Plus I'm still crushing the striker spring. There was relatively little force as I unscrewed the cap at the end of the stock behind the return spring. Is this supposed to be a strong spring?

Take a look and tell me what you think
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b826eea5-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6a80dd67-1.jpg

Just wondering:

When folk convert Brens to 7,62 x 54R, what (if anything) is done to allow for the significant difference in operating pressure?

The Russian cartridge is very close to the .30-06 in capacity and performance, thus, if an "original" barrel is simply reamed out for it, the port pressure will be higher than for the original .303. Let's also not forget that the .303 shoulder sits further forward than the 7.62.

So, what is the arrangement with your Bren?

Taking into account what Bruce says in thread 22 above, it's little wonder that the breech block and piston/piston extension assembly (BB&PEA) opf your semi-auto hit the buffers like a run-away train! The actual gas operation of the gun still works as per the auto gun and as such still NEEDS the double return springs. This is JUST the reason why we put doubles in there in the first place. Jeeeees...., words fail me......... Each return springs should be 13.4" long (neutral) as on the rearward stroke they operate as a) buffers to cushion the violent rearwards action of the relatively heavy BB&PEA and B) store energy to act as the medium to retuyrn same to battery AND cock, feed, load and lock the gun.

Haven't got the EMER handy but bearing in mind sentence 2 in para 1 above, 'action weight' of the gun must still be as per original. That is (if I remember correctly so anyone with the EMER handy please feel free to correct me.....) 19 - 23 lbs weight that goes down to 16 - 23 at a unit level.

GET THE CORRECT SPRINGS PDQ and your prayers willo be answered!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Just wondering:

When folk convert Brens to 7,62 x 54R, what (if anything) is done to allow for the significant difference in operating pressure?

The Russian cartridge is very close to the .30-06 in capacity and performance, thus, if an "original" barrel is simply reamed out for it, the port pressure will be higher than for the original .303. Let's also not forget that the .303 shoulder sits further forward than the 7.62.

So, what is the arrangement with your Bren?

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Bruce,

Pressure doesn't seem to be a problem. The Bren is capable of handling much larger cartridges than the .303. Originally designed for 8mm and I think some may have been built in 30-06. The semi-auto striker version of the semi Bren has more recoiling parts (striker) and an additional spring so the additional pressure from the 7.62x54r is a welcome advantage of the conversion.

The typical conversion consists of running a 7.62x54R reamer in the barrel and opening up the bolt face for the larger rim. Barrel ID for 54R is the same as the .303 british .311/.312". As you noted the cases come out fire formed with a double shoulder. There are no reports of extraction problems but the cases are useless. That is not a problem as the military cases are steel and berdan primed.

I did my own conversion work. I drove a short sleeve into the chamber with a mandrel before using the reamer. The sleeve provided material to correct for the void. Cases come out without the double shoulder.

It is a very popular conversion in the USA mainly because of the cheap price of mil surplus ammo.


Joe

Any views of my comments in thread 23 Joe. Not knowing much about the mechanics of these semi Brens, you have to be a bit careful about what you say/comment on from afar

djandj, did you pull the spring off the guide? It should be held together. As Peter said, just buy another Mk2 spring set.

I've also just noticed something which looks odd. Which spring have you got as the original return spring, and which is the striker spring? Looking at the setup of the striker on the slide in an earlier photo, it appears you have the longer and smaller diameter spring as the striker spring and the short fat spring as the return spring. Is that correct? If so, it's back to front.

Disregard my last, I've just realised the earlier photo isn't of yours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Any views of my comments in thread 23 Joe. Not knowing much about the mechanics of these semi Brens, you have to be a bit careful about what you say/comment on from afar

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Peter,

Your comments are correct. The semi bren works exactly like its full auto cousin. The difference is in fire control. The FA fires from an open bolt, the semi from a closed bolt. The sear catch is removed from the bolt carrier and a striker added behind the carrier. The striker has the sear catch. The piston post is ground back and slotted to allow for an extended firing pin. The FCG is modified to work in semi auto only. The return spring still has to return the bolt and carrier to in battery position. The gun is then fired with the trigger activating the striker. The gas system works identical to the original Bren.

Your comments are even more relevant when you realize that in order to use a 3/4" striker spring the original buffer has been removed on djandj and Wally's Bren's to make room for the striker spring. The design I used maintained the buffer and put the striker spring on the return rod. This limits the spring to max OD .35" and is more temperamental to get set up right.

Those return springs are definitely not the correct Bren springs!

Joe

OK Gang next question. As you can see, my Len Savage Bren came with the 3/4" striker spring located over the thin guide rod AND a mainspring which is located in the stock BEHIND the guide rod. NOW. I have received the new old stock MKII double springs (very small one inside a bit larger one (about 1/2 in diameter) SO.... I ASSUME I replace the 3/4 inch striker spring that the gun came with (right?) Do I leave the two new springs one inside the other as they came? and do I also replace the mainspring behind the guide rod in the stock?

Also, I wonder about changing to the real Bren springs now as it was pointed out above - the buffer block was drilled out to accept the 3/4 in spring Len originally sent with the gun. What happens when I change to the smaller 1/2 spring?

The double spring goes in the butt and replaces your single return spring. Leave the striker spring as is for now.

The return springs should fit onto the guide so that you can hole the end of the spring and the guide will sit on the end as one complete item. I can't find a photo to show you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

The double spring goes in the butt and replaces your single return spring. Leave the striker spring as is for now.

The return springs should fit onto the guide so that you can hole the end of the spring and the guide will sit on the end as one complete item. I can't find a photo to show you.

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HUH? What "guide" are you talking about? and what does "so that you can hole the end of the spring" mean? (this might be a translation issue from that "real" English you speak. (lol)

djandj,

Here is a pic. which will show what Brit plumber described.

Clean and lubricate the new return springs. Attach the outer return spring to the return rod. It just clips on to the boss on the return rod see arrow in pic. The inner spring just sits inside the outer spring. Put the return rod and springs back in the butt-stock where you found it. Screw the plug in tight. Put the striker spring back where it was. You should be good to go.

Joe

Attachment 53415

Hey....... hold on a minute djandj......... what sort of way is that to speak to a person or indeed a group of people who have busted a gut to help you sort out your problem? I bet Brit Plumber wishes he hadn't bothered now. Come to think of it......................

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Hey....... hold on a minute djandj......... what sort of way is that to speak to a person or indeed a group of people who have busted a gut to help you sort out your problem? I bet Brit Plumber wishes he hadn't bothered now. Come to think of it......................

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what Peter said.... so much politer than most would have put it.:yikes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Hey....... hold on a minute djandj......... what sort of way is that to speak to a person or indeed a group of people who have busted a gut to help you sort out your problem? I bet Brit Plumber wishes he hadn't bothered now. Come to think of it......................

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Peter - I'm afraid my sarcasm didn't come across well in print. I didn't mean to be offensive in the slightest. I was just teasing him b/c the sentence didn't make any sense. I am VERY grateful for any and all help I get here on the board. BRIT - if I came across as impolite, I do sincerely apologize. I was not meant that way.

No one ever needs to apologise to me but your explanation is accepted with the good grace it was given.

No offence taken, I've got armour plate skin, the wife says I'm insensitive, Whatever darling!

What my sentence was supposed to say was 'so that you can hold the end of the spring'

When I got my Bren from Len about 8 years ago, he gave me a couple of spare recoil springs. Also one of the ports on the regulator was opened up. I haven't had to replace the springs or use the enlarged gas port. However I did have to remove some metal from the inside of the of the receiver where the gas piston cylinder started because the square part of the piston, right behind the round part, struck it. I could tell because that area got very shiney real fast.

I reload for the Bren and all my Enfields and have used the Bren as my performance base. I can use the #3 port on any of my regulators and not have any feeding or ejection problems, plus it doesn't beat the brass up.

As someone said, I don't shoot the Bren a lot but when I do, I enjoy running the old girl and always get requests to try it from other shooters.

That's interesting Gopher - about the piston extension hitting the body at the start of the gas cylinder. That was a question regularly asked in Armourers trade tests to see whether they REALLY understood the intricacies of the inner workings of the gun. Such as 'what prevents any further movement forward of the piston, piston extension assembly and breech block during forward movement of the working parts'. The answer of course is that the breech block stops on the breech block stops (they're the solid blocks of steel below and to the left and right of the barrel). The breech block stops, the rear rises, locks and then mechanical safety takes place while the piston, piston extension assembly moce forwards a bit further to achieve absolute positive mechanical locking and THEN the piston post hits the firing pin and is stopped by the rounded part at the front of the piston post hitting the inside face of the breech block.

So the face of the piston extension should never be even close to the opening of the gas cylinder and I think Tankie and Skippy will bear this out. It just seems as though the breech block stops on your gun were VERY worn. But since it's presumably a semi re-work and safe then so be it!

Another often asked question was 'why is the butt slightly offset to the left of the gun' It's because the cocking mechanism intrudes slightly on the right side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

That's interesting Gopher - about the piston extension hitting the body at the start of the gas cylinder. That was a question regularly asked in Armourers trade tests to see whether they REALLY understood the intricacies of the inner workings of the gun. Such as 'what prevents any further movement forward of the piston, piston extension assembly and breech block during forward movement of the working parts'. The answer of course is that the breech block stops on the breech block stops (they're the solid blocks of steel below and to the left and right of the barrel). The breech block stops, the rear rises, locks and then mechanical safety takes place while the piston, piston extension assembly moce forwards a bit further to achieve absolute positive mechanical locking and THEN the piston post hits the firing pin and is stopped by the rounded part at the front of the piston post hitting the inside face of the breech block.

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Peter,

This has been a topic on one of the USA Forums related to building the semi-auto Bren gun. The general opinion was to prevent the breech block from smashing the barrel. No one really knew for sure. Obviously not the right answer.

With the older de-mills the block stops are not an issue since the de-mill cuts are through the mag well and the barrel nut area. Newer de-mills are cut through the barrel socket. If the weld is not spaced properly either the block stops are too far forward or worse, they prevent the breech bolt from seating on the cartridge. If too far rearward they increase headspace and have to be ground back to allow the gun to be head-spaced properly. Ask me how I know!



Joe

The L4 guns in service that had already had a previous life as Mk2 or 3 Brens suffered from worn out breech block stops in a big way. In order that the breech block never touched the face of the barrel we were permitted to stone/grind the upper front face of the breech blocks in order to remain clear of the barrel face BUT stop on the breech block stops. That's the reason why you might see this effect on used breech blocks and wonder why. There was a minimum depth of cartridge seating permitted but it was quite generous.

This was also allowed for on the .303" Brens too BUT (and am going from memory now.....) because there were a top overhanging feed horns on the .;303" Bren breech blocks, this was only done on a specially set-up horizontal grinder.

I think that at the end of their lives, worn-out breech block stops were the biggest killers of Brens and L4's especially if they had been using live service guns in training instead of using the already worn out L54 and L55 drill purpose guns. You could tell them until they were blue in the face but...............

Interesting thread!