New Manufacture No4 Barrels

I read this on the National Match High Power forum. There is no announcement of this on Criterion's website yet, so for now, take it for what it's worth.

Good news!

I received an Email response today from Criterion Barrels on a recent query to them about adding #4 Enfield Barrels to their product line to allow the many surplus rifles out in the United States an opportunity to be rebarreled and extend their lives on the gunline. The email from them stated that they about 95% complete on the production of a run of #4 barrels which should be available soon.

This means that the Military Vintage Games may see new rifles on the podium to knock all the New Old Stock Swiss and Swede rifles that have been dominating the matches in the last few years.

Just received an update from Criterion. They have an export agreement in place with their Australian Distributor (C96 Trading-Fine European Arms Importer and Wholesaler) and are working to finalize a deal with their Canadian Distributor so our Palma Teams may be competing against "as-new" Lee-Enfields pretty soon.

And considering the Lee-Enfield's propensity for sweet spots in long range accuracy it could make upcoming matches very interesting.

Still need someone to make Mk7 projectiles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bindi2

Still need someone to make Mk7 projectiles.

---

Do you mean a 174gr FMJ round for the .303 generally, or one with an aluminium core a la the issue military round?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield

Do you mean a 174gr FMJ round for the .303 generally, or one with an aluminium core a la the issue military round?

---

He probably means174gn bullets with a flat base for starters.

There is a couple of guys in the UK who make them but they appear to hand-swage the jackets on and so they are FAR from Cheap.

The mil spec 174gnFMJ open base. Not fussed about what is in the front as long as it works.

You would think with the amount of interest in the Mk VII progie some manufacturer would take up the challenge in making one to the same profile weight and BC we the shooters will do the rest but one step at a time a projie is useless with out the rest and so is the barrel without the tother.
So barrels it is, surely do I miss those Malcolm Bone TAIPAN 170gn .312 FBHP:(

On the Criterion barrels as far as the whisper I heard here in aus the price is $800.oo AU per barrel for the No.4 so you pick up a modest No.4 for say $700.oo buy a barrel $800.oo then fitted say $300.oo and hey presto $1800.oo AU

So it is sorta getting to be a pursuit that is getting out of the reach of the average family person so then the sport may be for the few who can afford it so much for the fun of shooting Milsurps as a hobby.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

So it is sorta getting to be a pursuit that is getting out of the reach of the average family person so then the sport may be for the few who can afford it so much for the fun of shooting Milsurps as a hobby.

---

Hobby? Not too unaffordable. But if you aspire to be top ranked in a competitive sense, then, no, not so much. But rarely would that be the case anyway. Top shooters probably burn through well more than $1800 per annum in ammo alone. I'm not a top shot but easily spend that per year as a duffer.

I was speaking for a previous thread that was posted by a chap married with 2 children and a mortgage and how the sport is getting expensive for Mr average, there are 1,000's out there like this person but I know years ago when I was on the bones of my arse how I longed to shoot every week end rather than one weekend a month.
Now I can open up the safes and go eenie meenie miny moe my wife does the same and my son well he is stuck with his 223 for now gotta start somewhere.

So for all those PB's out there having to hedge and scrimp to get some shooting in, keep the faith things will improve so you can pursue your passion its worth the wait a good plan is to get the wife involved I was lucky we met as pistol shooters and well the rest is history :thup:

I had an opportunity to stop at Criterion's shop this afternoon, and the comments above are accurate. The goal is to have barrels available by the end of the year, with No.1 barrels being put into development shortly thereafter.

Will they have full baynot lugs?

---------- Post added at 12:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

You would think with the amount of interest in the Mk VII progie some manufacturer would take up the challenge in making one to the same profile weight and BC we the shooters will do the rest but one step at a time a projie is useless with out the rest and so is the barrel without the tother.
So barrels it is, surely do I miss those Malcolm Bone TAIPAN 170gn .312 FBHP:(

On the Criterion barrels as far as the whisper I heard here in aus the price is $800.oo AU per barrel for the No.4 so you pick up a modest No.4 for say $700.oo buy a barrel $800.oo then fitted say $300.oo and hey presto $1800.oo AU

So it is sorta getting to be a pursuit that is getting out of the reach of the average family person so then the sport may be for the few who can afford it so much for the fun of shooting Milsurps as a hobby.

---

um, I can get MAB barrels installed for a no4 <$1000NZ.

On top of that a good no4 mk2 here in NZ is usually <$1k and a first class one $1500.

Oh and the mab barrel is more like <$500AU I think, the rest of the cost is then getting it chambered to what I want and fitted, know which one I'll be choosing by the look of it.

regards

I think you are dreaming, the 6.5mm wins for very good reasons. On top of that the old swedes with military spec 100 year old barrels v a new "match" grade after market barrel? that is fair? Here in NZ that isnt allowed.

regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beerhunter

He probably means174gn bullets with a flat base for starters.

There is a couple of guys in the UK who make them but they appear to hand-swage the jackets on and so they are FAR from Cheap.

---

Hi,

Well barnaul already make a 174gr flat base, good for 1 1/4inch MOA out of a worn P14 at 100yds and are 32cents NZ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

I was speaking for a previous thread that was posted by a chap married with 2 children and a mortgage and how the sport is getting expensive for Mr average, there are 1,000's out there like this person but I know years ago when I was on the bones of my arse how I longed to shoot every week end rather than one weekend a month.

---

Ammunition prices do seem to have gone up a lot in the last few years, as do the prices on the rifles that fire them. There's a couple of people I know who want to get into service rifle shooting but look at what a half-decent SMLE costs (about $550-750 or so, and that's without getting into the risk of getting a mismatched parts gun or something like that), then see it's more than $1 a round for the ammo and then decide they're maybe not quite as keen on getting into it all as they thought.

Sure, there are still some cheap rifles to be had out there if you know what you're looking for, but the people who want to get into shooting old rifles for the first time don't generally know what they're looking for.

I'm sure we've all had someone call us (or send a blurry, low-resolution pic) and say "I'm in a gun shop looking at an SMLE No 4* and it's $800, is that a good price?" and either had a lengthy conversation with them trying to work out what it is or just told them to leave it so you can check it out on their behalf later - because there's useful sums of money involved and no-one wants to see their friends or family out of pocket.

Even five years ago there were plenty of perfectly average SMLEs floating about for about the $350 mark, which is a sensible price for an entry-level rifle and not a huge capital outlay so if it turned out the rifle was a bit ordinary**. But now there's quite substantial sums of money (for the average person) involved, I do worry the hobby/sport is going to lose the younger members because they don't have the disposable income to buy increasingly expensive rifles and very expensive ammunition to make them go bang every month.

* I know the No 4 isn't an SMLE, but a surprising number of people don't.
** Terrible

I remember buying No4 enfields for $100 in very nice condition and that was all I could afford as I was a fitter and turner apprentice, and used to look at the guys shooting their $4000 delta HBAR ar15's that shot into 1/2 a minute of angle that I had to shoot against , but then we had port arthur and the playing field leveled right out (with the loss of the semi autos) and ever since then I wonder how much more we are going to loose, I have been rebarreling my own rifles for years and have all the equipment to do it, but I must admit those criterion barrels shoot like a laser beam, I have two of them in my 03A3 and A4 Springfields so I think an enfield would do well with one of them fitted

Yes, they are supposed to be period correct with bayonet lugs.

I cannot say but the source that is the sole supplier for these barrels in Australia quoted @$800.oo ea I am not going to try and remember the name of the supplier in Aus as I may be wrong and get a whole lotta crap flung at me which frankly I am over.
We were in NZ in 2007 and back later this year you are lucky to be able to procure suppressed weapons straight off the shelf ssj, you orta come to Western Australia where it can sometimes it may take up to a year to get weapons at $176.oo per application that's real fun, took me 6 months to get my 6.5/284 on my open license.
On the other foot in Victoria you get your application processed in 10 days!

Not quite 10 days my last one took 3 hours, online PTA through my local LGS

in NSW (Australia ) it takes about Ten days and costs $30 ,,, Western Australia !!!! beautiful scenery and the rest but their gun laws are a reflection of their government, they are a police state. and I feel sorry for the poor bugger who buy firearms on loan there.

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 PM ----------

in NSW (Australia ) it takes about Ten days and costs $30 ,,, Western Australia !!!! beautiful scenery and the rest but their gun laws are a reflection of their government, they are a police state. and I feel sorry for the poor bugger who buy firearms on loan there.

Wow, $800! I bought one of the Criterion P14 barrels when they we imported. Cost me $440 posted to Queensland. I don't reckon they'd be much more than that, though there is a bit more machining involved for the front sight base and the bayonet lugs. We will see though.

If $800 is the case and then you have to pay a gunsmith to pull your old barrel, fit and finish ream the new barrel and fit sights, it will end up being a $900-$1000 excercise.

I was wondering if Criterion would ever do runs of profiled blanks say for MLE and SMLE heavy profile etc that could be fitted by a gunsmith to an individual action instead of being pre fit. Would be nice!

I am hoping if the market takes off then the prices will come down but then we have the problem of waiting and I can tell you it manifests itself rather badly here in Australia more so in Western Australia as the rest of Australia treats us like an appendage (pity we have bucket loads of iron ore, gas and oil in W.A sorry I digress).
I think it is great that Criterion have decided to branch out and do stuff for the Enfields and derivatives to keep them going but for us south of the Equator it surely becomes a supply issue
I have had on order from N**A over east some VV-165 for my 6.5 x 284 through my gunshop who gets reminded often and still it has been 2 years coming and still not in sight at all, years ago I sent my 444 Marlin in for warranty work and it had to go over east it took 2 years to get my rifle back! lost, found, supplier change, lost again, then found and shipped home hence I keep it to my local only 26 ks away not 4,000 ks......

Guess we all wait for developments in this new era that is slowly coming, as a footer do not try and get Lothar Walther barrels exported my friend told me he has tried and well how long is a piece of string apparently something to do with the changing and tightening of their export laws after Aus was flooded with illegal Glock pistols and parts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

Guess we all wait for developments in this new era that is slowly coming, as a footer do not try and get Lothar Walther barrels exported my friend told me he has tried and well how long is a piece of string apparently something to do with the changing and tightening of their export laws after Aus was flooded with illegal Glock pistols and parts.

---

There is no problem importing Lothar Walther barrels. And I expect my shipment of UK made, newly manufactured No4 barrels in .303 and 7.62, with bayonet lugs, blackened and proofed, after several delays, in the next week or so... and won't that be a relief!

Boy, I'd sure like to get my "Bubba'd" No.4 MKI (T) rifle restored with a new barrel. All correct action and scope pads - but butchered barrel - makes me cry at times.

Guess what I just picked up today?! Brand Spanking! And not just 2 either.

Criterion are sending one of the first batch here at the end of the month for installation and testing. I'm looking forward to it. They will be short chambered so that they can be finish reamed to a #0 bolt head! Yay!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimmieZ

Boy, I'd sure like to get my "Bubba'd" No.4 MKI (T) rifle restored with a new barrel. All correct action and scope pads - but butchered barrel - makes me cry at times.

---

Though for a T I'd suggest a genuine barrel to maintain its value, though that is a personal thing.

The way to do that maybe buy a No4 mk2 with an A1 barrel and swap them out.

---------- Post added at 09:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 AM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Criterion are sending one of the first batch here at the end of the month for installation and testing. I'm looking forward to it. They will be short chambered so that they can be finish reamed to a #0 bolt head! Yay!!

---

Now that is a good idea, all my heads are 1s, and getting 0 heads is pretty easy and cheap.

Hi all
long time lurker first post.
I have followed this thread and similar ones on other forums, this is all good news for the LE owning community. Going from scrounging barrels to having Two companys making them is fantastic.
Brian Dick and tbonesmith I have a question regarding specifics of the barrels, printed or actual measurements you have made /make.
Rifling type /grove No.
Major /minor - land/grove dia.
I am shore others would like to know this as there is nothing on Criterion's or Armolons respective web pages.
Thank you in advance Sean

Just one little point that I have been pondering over...... Re this 'shallow/short chamber' idea as alluded to in Brians thread 24.
Barrel breeched up in body, shallow chamber, No0 bolt head fitted and bolt/head won't QUITE close over a .064" gauge.........
On a rimless cartridge you just ream the chamber a minute amount and the datum point on the shoulder moves fractionally to allow the bolt to close over the .064 or 1.6325 or other GO CHS gauge. So far, so good.

But how does such a plan work with a rimmed cart. where the rim and therefore CHS is measured from themachined rear end of the barrel?

Can I assume that in this case (if you'll excuse the pun.....) the chamber reamer includes a reamer or milling cutter of sorts that will shave steel from the rear of the barrel too?

It seems to me that that is the only way the shallow/short chambering thing can work on a rimmed cart. barrel........... Or have I missed something?

You've got me grinning again Pete, things I think you ask..........must have something to do with RAEME/REME:beerchug:

I don't know those particulars Sean and Peter. I have no personable involvement with the manufacture of these barrels other than to supply some front sight bases and a spike bayonet so they could reverse engineer the barrel lugs. I've only breeched up Lee barrels the old fashioned way by fitting bolt/bolt head assemblies to spec using correct gauges. I'm as curious as everyone else about just how the short chamber process will work. The theory is good but….. I guess we'll find out in due time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sean6.555

Hi all
long time lurker first post.
I have followed this thread and similar ones on other forums, this is all good news for the LE owning community. Going from scrounging barrels to having Two companys making them is fantastic.
Brian Dick and tbonesmith I have a question regarding specifics of the barrels, printed or actual measurements you have made /make.
Rifling type /grove No.
Major /minor - land/grove dia.
I am shore others would like to know this as there is nothing on Criterion's or Armolons respective web pages.
Thank you in advance Sean

---

The .303 barrels are 5 groove and are made to a major bore diameter of .310 instead of .311, twist is 1:10".
The .308 barrels are 4 groove and 1:12.5" twist.

Headspace is slightly adjustable on the .303 barrels, but they are not short chambered.

That's about all I have got.

Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbonesmith

The .303 barrels are 5 groove and are made to a major bore diameter of .310 instead of .311, twist is 1:14".
The .308 barrels are 4 groove and 1:14" twist.

Headspace is slightly adjustable on the .303 barrels, but they are not short chambered.

That's about all I have got.

---

WHAT!!

1-14 twist for both!! I guess they expect us to only shoot the light stuff.

Tbonesmith, Took a look at your website and see the Armalon barrels you have on there. What are the specs on the 303 british?

The "short-chambered" assertion also appears on Criterion's website description of thier U.S. Krag barrels. However, inspection of samples has revealed that these barrels (for a rimmed cartridge very similar to the .303 British), are not, in fact, "short-chambered". It appears whoever is writing this stuff for Criterion is more familiar with their products for rimless cartridges. See ad copy at .30-40 Krag Barrel

There's a discussion of this topic at Krag Collectors Association Forum - Has anyone installed a Criterion Barrel on a Krag?

i have a stoopit question...

will the new barrels have the same loose chamber dimensions of the factory barrels.

i hate getting only 3 reloads out of my brass:bitch::bitch:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rwsgunsmithing

WHAT!!

1-14 twist for both!! I guess they expect us to only shoot the light stuff.

Tbonesmith, Took a look at your website and see the Armalon barrels you have on there. What are the specs on the 303 british?

---

Sorry guys it's 1:10" for the .303 & 1:12.5" for the .308... Now that sounds a bit better.

Sorry for the confusion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbonesmith

The .303 barrels are 5 groove and are made to a major bore diameter of .310 instead of .311,

8><----

---

So for my Barnual 174Gr flat base FMJs that are 0.310~0.3105 they sound perfect.

:D

Now I need to get one in NZ!

---------- Post added at 10:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------

Doh, I missed the headspace/short chambered thing....So this barrel should simply be a screw in job?

regards

There must be some mix up on the specs as the P14 barrel they offer in 303 british is a 1-10 twist.

I'm gonna call them tomorrow and see what is what.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rwsgunsmithing

There must be some mix up on the specs as the P14 barrel they offer in 303 british is a 1-10 twist.

I'm gonna call them tomorrow and see what is what.

---

Yes mate, it is 1:10 I just made a mistake.

3 relaods out of your brass........... Yoiu need to be using different brass!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbonesmith

Yes mate, it is 1:10 I just made a mistake.

---

My apologizes I walked away from my computer for awhile and then finished my post. I guess I should have refreshed the page before finishing it.

I just had an email from Josh at Criterion. The barrels will be "short chambered" the same as the Krag barrels are. There is a raised collar of steel that is higher than the flat of the back of the breech around the chamber. This is designed to be finished reamed down to fit individual bolt heads. My uneducated opinion would be to finish ream to a new spec #0 every time. It's a learning curve for me as I said before but the method appears good in theory. To quote a gent who's opinions rate high on my priority list, "I'm only a mere armorer"!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian Dick

. . .The barrels will be "short chambered" the same as the Krag barrels are. There is a raised collar of steel that is higher than the flat of the back of the breech around the chamber. . .

---

The raised collar as described does appear visible in this Krag barrel image from Criterion's website -

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0Chamber-1.jpg

Maybe they should use a different term than "short-chambered" since the chamber is actually longer with the raised collar present than it would be after "reaming" some of it away. Perhaps "long-faced"? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tbonesmith

There is no problem importing Lothar Walther barrels. And I expect my shipment of UK made, newly manufactured No4 barrels in .303 and 7.62, with bayonet lugs, blackened and proofed, after several delays, in the next week or so... and won't that be a relief!

---

A No4 barrel in .308? I though it was just the Ishapores that were made in 308 (7.62 Nato)...
Do you have a No4 in .308 or are you working on some project to convert one?

$800 is steep, I wonder if the Criterion barrels will be any cheaper here in the US.
Most of the other barrels on their website are available for around $200 US...

The Criterion barrels haven't been priced yet but the general consensus is that they'll be considerably cheaper than Lothar Walther and Armalon barrels which are problematic to import to the USA right now anyhow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by logandiana

A No4 barrel in .308? I though it was just the Ishapores that were made in 308 (7.62 Nato)...
Do you have a No4 in .308 or are you working on some project to convert one?

...

---

There are 1000's and 1000's of 7,62 Lee Enfields (in addition to the Ishapores) - some Military Issue and some Civilian modifications.

Have a search for L39 and L42 rifles, both Military issue in 7.62.
Have a search for 'Enforcer' - An Enfield manufactured Lee Enfield in 7.62 for the UK and Commonwealth Police.
Have a search for DCRA (Canadian) Modified Lee Enfields in 7.62

It's worth bearing in mind that when we re-barrelled a No4, we had a selection of about 15 - 20 or so on a rack and chose the one that would give the nearest hand-tight underturn. They were all made to the same spec, as were the rifles but a slight low or high tolerance at the thread start or other datum would make a huge difference in the ultimate breeching up indexing due to the geometry of the threads in relation to the nocks form or foresight blocks or extractor way.........

I just feel that the current barrel makers will make every barrel identical to the pattern they selected to back engineer simply by virtue of the inherent accuracy of modern machinery. While thyis is most admirable, it might mean that where there is body wear etc etc etc, there will be problems.

So.................

Given that Lee-Enfields are not a "Shake and Bake" design, why not produce a (slightly less expensive?) barrel that is "almost there" and sling some work in the direction of starving gun-plumbers? Breeching shoulder; a few thou rearwards, Tenon; a bit long, chamber; a bit short, etc. Ten minutes of measuring by the gunsmith should provide all of the right numbers to provide correct "adjustments" so things will fit at the correct breeching torque.

The Krag-like "extension" collar is one neat trick, but ONLY if it has to be trimmed shorter to finalise the headspace on a PROPER bolt head. And no, we do NOT need Nos.4, 5 and 6, etc. size boltheads!!

If the receiver / bolt / bolthead combination does not gauge up correctly, one or more of those three components is "unserviceable". Once the receiver body has lost the VERY thin hard skin on the locking shoulders, it is effectively just a very interesting paperweight. (Or MAYBE a candidate for building into a .22 RF "trainer" / "fun-gun".......as long as you can get the parts, etc.........)

So, what we REALLY need is a barrel that is "gunsmith-fit" only, AND, a bunch of Lee-Enfield-savvy gunsmiths, who should be able to weed out the worn, stretched, cracked etc. original parts.

Bruce in Oz makes an excellent point about worn bodies. I know the telltale signs of one thats too far gone to mess with but sure wish I could lay my hands on a calibrated test bolt. I just know I'm going to get worn out Century Arms and other "imports" from God knows where belonging to people who are looking for a new rifle with a new barrel! The real world will strike!!

Good for you Oz as the Gunny's here could use some extra dosh as in W.A our turn around for additions is having our shops on the verge of extinction and any work they can get helps them survive if you have a 0000's dollars of ordered weapons sitting there waiting for the Contractors to check your paper work not the local police station as was the way in the old days. There are plenty of old 303's that could use a new tube and to have some finals done to the new tube would aid our ailing gunnies and ensure the job in done safely and not a back yarder.

PL why did not say Lithgow, Maltby, Faz, L B and so on go with indexing marks was this used as a guide to the U.S.A Amourer's so they could measure the amount that has to be machined etc to align the marks to speed up the process or were their tolerances so much tighter than the Commonwealths speaking on the '03's of course.
TIA

Ah, yes....., index marks..... NOTORIOUS for being easy to misinterperet. What one sees as perfect alignment another will see as out! The L85/SA80 is a classic example. Even NO4's weren't immune even though parallel gauges were used. And so they might....., but if one part is incorrect or worn or machined slightly out, then the rest of the set-up is too!

If you allow some of these 'gunsmiths' to set about your rifles, then........ Well, lets just say that I prefer to put some of these in the 'well meaning enthusiastic amateur' category. Some of them seem to be aware of keeping them going bang but no in-depth knowledge to speak of. But don't get me going.......

I agree with Peter. Give modern gunsmiths an AR15 and no issues, give them something "old" and frankly luck walks in the door, while the money in your wallet exits fast.

Hence I will probably buy myself a AR15 to shoot in service rifle day to day shortly and bring out my golden oldies a few times a year.

regards

I totally agree with you PL but what of the shooting fraternity with these weapons we can only go to the ones that have a semblance of knowledge my Gunsmith has some experience with them but where else for me Beatons firearms 250 klms away verses 26 klms to my gunsmith and personnel as yourself with the training have not had the time to pass on to the public or train up correctly the people on these weapons.
Who would have a full set of production gauges I mean the full set and all the blue printed drawings yes the web has them but they have been copied off copies that were copied in the first place, there is some one some where I 'spose but people tend not to share in case some one best's them at their own game.

The SASR boys came down last year with the sole purpose at beating us at our own game and did (they have tried a few times) in the Bill King Shield, 5 man teams shot with No.4 and Mk III's un modified no T's or L 42's etc it's held over 2 days we have won the shield often but have the knowledge of the range (owned by the dept of defence anyway) but their rifles were very good indeed, ahh! to have access to SASR's Armourers......!
Anyway I just wanted to know about the indexing, but agree with you. Cheers

The commonality of SMLEs in Australia means most gunsmiths have some familiarity with them, but the chaps with the in-depth knowledge of the guns are getting on in years and retiring from it all, leaving a younger generation who often have little interest in "old stuff".

It wasn't only No4's that would index on the parallel gauge but where the foresight protectors would clearly be slightly angled. But the L1A1 too. That's why we always used the surface plate to confirm 'uprightness' so to speak. There was also another problem that could trap the unwitting too. That was where a rifle would breech-up perfectly and visibly BUT in real terms, it'd be just over hand tight - just waiting to unbreech/loosen after a few rounds. Several years ago I rebuilt and rebarrelled a totally shot-out Canadian Lyman/TP rifle and only one of the barrels in a rack of about 25 or so new - including a few almost new ones - was anywhere near tight enough, and that was barely good enough if I told the truth.

In reply to Col Enfield old stuff to me is when they used the slow burning match to ignite the whole shebang, in fact if you source the course of shooting this weapon of this type and era there is a gesture in the routine the firer takes off their hat in a salute to hopefully the bl**dy thing will go off and not kill them instead of the enemy......! :rofl:
As in the age of the firearm so to speak our venerable Lee Enfield is a pup.

Are your new barrels going to have LH twist Enfield pattern rifling?
If the fit of the new barrels are all over the place due to variations in the action threads I suspect that the complaints from the purists will be enough to shut down production of the new barrels. From what I have read armorers are using to installing standard replacement barrels or tossing receivers that do not work.
You should be lining up real gunsmiths who are used to fitting barrels and clocking them. Don't flame me I am just stating the obvious.

I was able to visit Criterion Barrels on the way home from work today ... and had the fortune to take a look at the new No.4 Enfield barrel prototypes ... they're looking good!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...39441eab-1.jpg

I'd guess that we dumb Armorers will be able to sort the new barrels out one way or the other. I'm used to learning curves and have resources to help if need be. I know I can index them properly and they won't need index marks! It won't be by the book either. It'll be the way I was trained by someone who's done thousands of them and guess what, when done that way, they come out perfectly indexed every time!

When there is not enough metal on the barrel shoulder you will resort to using shims which is sort of a make shift installation.
While an armorer is use to the crown paying for the parts is happy to toss an old receiver (no money out of his pocket) a #4 rifle owner will not stand for that. If the old receivers are highly variable the new barrels would be better off to have an extra .020 material left on the shoulder. A shallow chamber would also help. That makes it easy to face the shoulder to properly index. It might even allow the owner to face the receiver face square with the threads.
Once the barrel is indexed it can be finished chambered to put the head space where you want it with the specific bolt and bolt head you plan to use.
If some armorers are not skilled running a lathe they are really handicapped.

I am still curious about the purists and their take on the rifling having RH twist vs LH twist. Is this a detail that will alter #4 performance at long range? Is it something collectors will reject because it is not identical to the original design?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I'd guess that we dumb Armorers will be able to sort the new barrels out one way or the other. I'm used to learning curves and have resources to help if need be. I know I can index them properly and they won't need index marks! It won't be by the book either. It'll be the way I was trained by someone who's done thousands of them and guess what, when done that way, they come out perfectly indexed every time!

---

I think that we are all forgetting along the way here that these new build barrels will have to do several things EXACTLY First is to tighten up. The second is to index properly. That is NOT on the parallel gauge but when the foresight is exactly vertical. The third is that it has to come within the .010" CHS range when these first two events have taken place.

It's no good talking about shims because these just SPACE-OUT what you have. Machining a shoulder will just reverse that. And it's absolutely no good doing either if all you get is good CHS and under or overturn when you breech up hard. And furthermore, I can GUARANTEE you this too......... A customer who buys a new barrel WILL want his rifle to CHS on a 0 or 1 bolthead, you know that and so do I! He won't accept a 2 and certainly wonlt accept a 3. After all, if a Base workshop reject a No3 bolthead as insufficient to provide sufficient remaining life, why should the paying customer.

There are so many variables out there such as worn bodies, bolts threads.................

The only way that I personally would do this is to leave the muzzle end stepped down in line with the rear of the foresight block lugs. Wider extractor way cut. Remainder of the barrel as per normal. Breech up with shims or slightly machine breeching up shoulder (or supply new barrel pre-shouldered with selection of breeching washers) to get .064" CHS on a 0 bolthead with your already matched/professionally fitted bolt. With me so far...........?

Now press on the machined muzzle end, align lugs to give an exactly vertical foresight block and lock in place. Simple.

It ain't original of course but nor is a replacement barrel! If you want to keep it original, then don't bleedin' use it!

Well said Peter, that's why we collectors have shooters and safe queens.

I agree with Peter that all of these variables do exist. However, replacement barrels have been made before and there's no reason they can't be made here in the USA as they already are by Armalon and Lothar Walther overseas. The short chamber issue has been addressed and photos posted of a similar setup on a .30-40 Krag barrel as made by Criterion. If a barrel won't index without skimming the shoulder then so be it. It's been done forever with other barrels. No big deal. If the barrel is too loose, then a breeching washer is the fix as Peter says. They've also been a tried and true method in the SLR and as well as many other rifles including some of the Enfield 7.62 conversions. RH vs LH twist? There's nothing new about that either when it comes to the No.4. Savage used it early in production and Long Branch late in production. I sent Criterion a No.4 body in good shape this week stripped of it original barrel so they can move into design and production taking into consideration all of the points being discussed here. I'll be looking forward to a test trial of one of their first batch of new No.4 barrels.

One may be prudent in waiting after they sort the minor bugs out before contemplating getting one though o/seas might be a issue for us in AUS

I'm working with T-Bone on the USA-Australia pipeline so supply won't be an issue when the time comes. He's got excellent Armalon barrels in stock now if in need.

Hi Guys,

with regard to the fitting issues touched on in this thread, they have been well and adequately considered and in reality are no problem at all. The fact remains that minor fitting is necessary, as it is on just about any barrel.

On the following example I have trimmed the standing breech face to get correct headspace to a suitable bolthead, and faced the receive face to allow correct timing of the barrel. This receiver face cut could have been taken from the barrel shoulder, but I like to cleanup the receiver face anyway, and this total facing operation removed about 2 thou, which was enough.

This rifle is a nice No4Mk1/3 and I'll get it bedded and setup this week, range report to follow next weekend! My inkling is that she will be a little ripper... We'll see anyway.

Cheers

Tom

Will be good to see the end result though not being picky these will/perhaps have to be included in the SSR's as a modified and not original 303 to be fair to those that try to maintain the originality of our weapons but know that eventually in years to come that stocks of original barrels in good shooting condition will dry up.
I guess there are those that have been able to grab in the grease brand new un issued barrels which command a reasonable price, but these new barrels we are assured that the 303 will be around for as long as the other components last and hopefully future gunnies will understand the quirks of the Lee Enfield line to keep the fun and camaraderie happening long after we are all shooting with Elmer Keith and Bell.........

Strewth Tom, you must have hired a cleaner, my lathes are usually knee deep in swarf:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Strewth Tom, you must have hired a cleaner, my lathes are usually knee deep in swarf:lol:

---

I'm "one of those guys" who likes to work clean.:)

"Cleanliness is next to godliness and next to flaming impossible too" :D

Nice work Tom that No 4 you sold me is shooting brilliantly :clap:

So no reamer is needed to set headspace?

No, no reamer required. Seems a bit funny, but that's how it is.

What would be the best way to get one of these barrels in New Zealand?

Simply apply for an import permit and make a private import. Simple as that! Think that it's going to be difficult....... Think again. My friend in ChCh did it with a siongle shot SA80

Done that plenty of times for ar parts.
Have had a couple of pm with tbonesmith so well under way

I would like to thank all the posters for this very informative thread. I look forward to future postings. For several years I had thought I was very lucky to have two like new barrels in 303 and 7.62 and two serviceable receivers to mate but this has let a great deal of sunshine on the larger picture of our sport/ passion.

I have been away to middle earth for a good long time with no shooting at all but now reading this post I feel the juices starting to warm and flow again. Thank you all.

Note to self, contact Brain.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9789e3ac-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Bruce in Oz makes an excellent point about worn bodies. I know the telltale signs of one thats too far gone to mess with but sure wish I could lay my hands on a calibrated test bolt. I just know I'm going to get worn out Century Arms and other "imports" from God knows where belonging to people who are looking for a new rifle with a new barrel! The real world will strike!!

---

A test bolt to gauge what? The wear on the recoil lugs or the alignment of the boltway to the barrel threads/shoulder, or the diameter of the bolt way?

Since I've never used one, I'd let Peter or someone else with experience answer just exactly what the test bolt does and how it works. Most receivers I've seen that are known ZF have worn bolt ways which usually means the sear is dragging or even catching on the LH locking lug. It's a given that the hardening in the sear lug recesses is most likely very tired when the weapon has seen such extensive use. I've seen two No.4T rifles that were both marked ZF because of worn bolt ways. The interesting part is that both rifles had been through complete FTR in the mid 1950's then must have failed the test gauge so were culled and surplused to the civilian market. They looked as new. One wonders why they weren't gauged and culled at the beginning of the FTR process instead of afterwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Since I've never used one, I'd let Peter or someone else with experience answer just exactly what the test bolt does and how it works. Most receivers I've seen that are known ZF have worn bolt ways which usually means the sear is dragging or even catching on the LH locking lug. It's a given that the hardening in the sear lug recesses is most likely very tired when the weapon has seen such extensive use. I've seen two No.4T rifles that were both marked ZF because of worn bolt ways. The interesting part is that both rifles had been through complete FTR in the mid 1950's then must have failed the test gauge so were culled and surplused to the civilian market. They looked as new. One wonders why they weren't gauged and culled at the beginning of the FTR process instead of afterwards.

---

Indeed. But then our government is known for spending vast sums refurbishing items only to sell them at knock-down prices shortly afterwards. Perhaps other governments do the same!

I must say I've always wondered about the wear to the recoil lug faces question. Looking at the hardening marks on the left receiver/body walls the electro-hardenings looks as much as 1/4" wide at times and never less than 3/16". Is it really possible to wear through the hardened face and how does one detect that? I wonder if actual stretching of the body could be a factor.

You'll just have to believe me Rob that the hardening of No4 bodies is a problem and is always tested during Base workshops. Once it's gone through, that's it - scrap/DP etc etc! It#s not just worn through locking lug hardness that the bolt will test for. Lots of other things as Brian has suggested

I have mentioned this many many times on the forum and during the trials to test the feasibility of a No4 bolthead just to save needy bodies. The calibrated gauge bolt was the final arbiter. After all, if the examiner didn't have a gauge standard bolt, all that he could have was a gauge standard body on which he'd have to breech up the barrel from the rifle he was testing.

Brian asks why it would appear that a rifle iis ZF'd seemingly AFTER it'd been through the process. That's easy. Somethimes you have to repair the rifle to ascertain whether your work will correct a fault. Do the work, re-test and it if still fails, that's it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It#s not just worn through locking lug hardness that the bolt will test for. Lots of other things as Brian has suggested

---

Would you care to expand on what those things are Peter and how they are checked? It seems to me to be a good thing if more of this knowledge is in the public domain, lest it be lost to time.

Another important one was worn bolt way. To test whether the cocking piece will run into or touch the nose of the sear. This fault can only be repaired once. A second time and the body is scrap.

I mention elsewhere that this test was relaxed during L42 conversion as many No4T bodies were within the failure range

Peter, I take it the slight flat on the locking lug seen on many well used rifles is the evidence of what you have referred to? And would I be right in thinking the 'once only remedy' for the worn bolt way involved the judicious use of a big chisel (or similar implement!)?

ATB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Res

What would be the best way to get one of these barrels in New Zealand?

---

Well, its going to cost you one hell of a lot of money (past $1kNZD). I looked at doing it and its just too expensive to be worthwhile.

The barrel will also be over $400NZD so there will be 15% tax on it when it lands just to add to the pain.

So I am going to buy an AR15 instead to plink and compete in WSRA competitions with.

Peter, problem is finding someone who will ship from the USA for a single item and who'll do the US export permit work with the US state department. I am doing this with Brownells for AR15 parts (anything over $100USD needs one), it costs and it is painful and slow (as you have to send the orignal signed docs back by snail mail) to say the least. I am still waiting on confirmation of my first order is a goer after some 2 weeks.

"involved the judicious use of a big chisel"

from what I can read, yes a shaped chisel to the right spot.

I think there was also a comment that there is also 1 visual as well ie it the bolt has worn a groove in the wood stock.

I went through this pain last year when someone sold me a stuffed no4. Seems the trigger guard can be bent to pull the trigger down, which pulls the sear down to hide the catching. Once I straightened the guard in order to set the gun up properly the bolt would not cycle. Cannot do that nasty trick on m1/2's 1/3's of mk2s.

regards

The Canadian No4 manual circa 1980 illustrates a tool made just like a "big chisel" for just this purpose: to push the bottom rear edge of the receiver down into the path of the sear, keeping it slightly lower.

This would suggest that either they didn't know it represented a worn bolt way, or they found it was not a critical fault, or there was some explanation other than a worn boltway in some or all cases.

What's the problem shipping to NZ SSJ. Don't be defeatist, Brian at BDL is a certified exporter..... Next question!

DRP. From the answers/comments above, you can see or understand why I don't think that I should elaborate on the matter any further.......... Sorry to sound disrespectful chaps but a little knowledge can indeed be dangerous

The problem is I have to get 2 forms filled in, plus a letter saying I can import legally to NZ and snail mail posted back to the USA and the person at the other end has to deal with the State department to get an export permit, all this costs. The net result is a no4 barrel that costs over >1kNZD, not really economic for a std no4, a "T" yes sure. Now with someone like Brownells the add on % is quite small and the parts for an AR15 commodity priced. There is then also the risk to the person in the USA that they can ship the parts paid for via a VISA only to find its stolen and they are out of pocket.