I found six sets of links or belt sections that range in caliber from 5,56mm to 7,92mm, two
sets are compatible with each other the rest are not !
Easy quiz to identify the links/belt sectionsAttachment 53516
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I found six sets of links or belt sections that range in caliber from 5,56mm to 7,92mm, two
sets are compatible with each other the rest are not !
Easy quiz to identify the links/belt sectionsAttachment 53516
TOP, L - R
NATO M27 (5.56mm) Standard
German Zerfallgurt 17/81 (7.92x57mm) For use with MG17
NATO M27 (5.56mm) These solid link seem to be found loaded with Blank rounds
BOTTOM, L - R
NATO M13 (7.62x51mm) Standard
NATO M13 (7.62x51mm) These solid link seem to be found loaded with Blank rounds
British BESA (7.92x57mm) Cloth/metal belt.
Ditto
Some more for fun for you to identify
The top photo on the left showing 5.56mm links are not M27 linksAttachment 54126
The links that were not identified in the upper left of the photo are Stoner 63 links which are not quite the same as the M27 links and are not 100 % compatible in weapons designed to use the M27 links. The Stoner links are all marked (photo)Attachment 54127
Those are made by Borg-Warner?? Is that right?
This one lost his belt..............but it was a heavy round:lol:
Jim, You are right, the Stoner 63 link was manufactured by Borg-Warner. The Stoner 63 link was scaled down from the M13 link that was developed for the M60 machine gun.
The Stoner links are quite valuable today and difficult to find in any quantity, some owners have their weapons converted to use the M27 link which is very common. There is a difference in the pitch between the Stoner 63 link and the M27 link.
On a serious note... wasn't the Stoner link made out of a more hard wearing metal?
My Winnie the Pooh avatar was as a direct "link" to how crap most of the worlds links are, so quite a good thread to hopefully identify the best around.
The hours we spent ensuring we collected all the GPMG links so they could be reused, hopefully puts them somewhere near the top for quality, one hopes!!
A missing link between the Stoner 63 and M27 link and the M13 link is in the photo. This link is for the 6mm SAW and this cartridge is headstamped F A 73 on a steel lacquered case. The link is a intermediate size being larger than the Stoner link and smaller than the M13 link. There were a number of these developments as a larger than 5.56mm cartridge was thought to be more useful in a belt fed weapon and the 6mm was tested. Later it
was felt that a third caliber was not in the best interest !Attachment 54148
Now we can see the stoner link is just a tad different.
Cinder's Quiz :
photo 1) 20mm links ? and M2 50 cal BMG links photo 2) Swiss charger for 7,5x55mm rifles & early 303 Enfield charger 3) appears at first as a MG42 belt but is more modern ?
1) Correct 20mm marked H 1 Y - 50 cal correct 2)Correct K-31 and early 303 filled with '22 Mk VII rounds 3) Correct - markings on the MG-42 starter tab is 1 41 W aA B 43 anyone got a clue to the others under the starter tab!
I know what they come from come on you'se guys join the fray.... HHHmmm clue they come from the sky!!!!! :rolleyes:
So no one tried to guess them so I won, :dancingbanana: the very top single round O/tip is a 30/06 all others are Mk VII 303 the 30/06 rounds do not fit the links these are not often seen at least down this way disint links for possibly the Browning wing guns for the 303's in either the Spit, Hurri or Beaufighter or whatever else they fitted the Browning MG to.
Interesting as the link has no insert to hold the rear lip of the round like most links.
They must have had a few stoppages with the rounds laid in and held by gravity alone without the rear lip, especially as most of those aircraft could expect 1-2 G
The Browning M1919 machinegun link (M1 link) was not designed for a push-through link such as the MG42 or M13 link. In the model 1919 series, the cartridge is pulled out to the back by the extractor towards the bolt then forward into the barrel. Original belts being fabric (which I always thought were smoother while firing) and the M1 link.
Interesting is that the US Navy did convert some Model 1919 BMG's to 7,62 NATO for use on gunboats during the Viet Nam war in 1967. There was a grooved bushing inserted into the chamber of the 30-06 barrel for the 7,62mm cartridge, which required much modification to the mechanism and the cartridges in M13 links had to be loaded upside down. Cartridges were
pulled out to the back and down towards the bolt like the 30-06. There was also a six inch hider attached to the muzzle. This weapon was called the Mark 21 Mod 0
Our 1919A4s were called the C1, C4, C5 machineguns and they used a pattern of the current US link. They still extracted from the feed way instead of pushing the cartridge forward like the M60 and MG3 and others of today. It was un-necessary to turn the links up side down...we used a new barrel and many parts in the feed were completely changed. Sadly, the mod was only marginally successful. With the procurement of the MAG in '85 or so, we gladly retired these.
As for the links used in the Inglis guns in cal .303, the suffered remarkably few stoppages with that tiny circular link as suggested by Gil Boyd. They were designed specifically for the gun and cartridge and they came from a proven type as used in both the .50 and .30 cal guns. Can't imagine why you'd think they'd be unreliable Gil... A gun that's going to be buried in the wing of an aircraft and fire at about 900 RPM has to be reliable. Also I've personally hand fired one and it ran perfectly. My head space was off and I suffered one separated casing which was cleared easily... Once you examine them mechanically, you can see what a piece of engineering artwork they are.
They don't look like the links for the Browning .303, they look like they are for something else, Izzy 7.62? The .303 links have the neck piece flowing in an 'S' shape but the main body piece folding back on it's self. The links in your photo shows both the body and neck pieces folding back on themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
.303" Browning link
Attachment 54246
Jim,
Would be great to see it in action as it does seem to defy logic, a kind of engineering magic inside the framework of the aircraft. Watched a tethered fighter aircraft once held down by its tail firing non stop into a butt as a kid on a WW2 propaganda fil, which I'll try and dig out, and marveled at the rate of fire, and I do agree about the canvas belts RCS smooth as silk.;)
Here is a P40 on the doing ground firing tests during the war:
P-40 fighter machine gun convergence set on firing range - YouTube
and a Mustang in more recent times propped up to hit the target:
Twilight Tear .50 Caliber Machine Gun Testing - YouTube
Watching that P51 would make a guy want to take it out for a bit of a gun run Gil. Out over the farms that have derelict vehicles and tractors out behind the barn...maybe a used car lot..
I have a set of 99x .303 links here...maybe I should take some pics just because...
Old photo shows a number of BMG M1919A6's that were collected from each company and all set-up to go to the range. The M1919A6's in the photo have had the bipods removed and are mounted on the M2 tripod, at the range, sandbags were placed around the tripod legs for better support.
The armorer in the photo has checked the headspace in each weapon and will be at the range during firing in case of any problems (there were no problems) I was the armorer.Attachment 54249
I have tried a Nato round in them and wont fit, the person I procured these off many years ago informed me they were links from an aircraft armed with the 303 round hence why I put 2 singles one of each to show you.
Other aircraft news bit there were 303 rounds that were specifically designed for aircraft only with 3 - 4 stabs in the primer hole to hold the primer in place, there were reports of the Spits pulling 10G but tended to crinkle the wings a bit though Reginald Mitchell designed a plane that even today endures and inspires
I think that may either be specific to a country other than the UK or there's been some confusion, according to TonyE who is a well known 303 ammunition author who I quote hereQuote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
"Air service ammunition for synchronised guns (Red Label) was normally marked "Not to be used in Synchronised guns after (date)", this usually being two years after manufacture. The ammunition could be retested for hangfires and if satisfactory given a new service date. Otherwise it was relegated to "Special for RAF" and could be used in non synchronised guns. I have seen no evidence that relegated ammunition was ever transferred to the army.
In any case, in WW2 all this was obsolete, mainly because there were virtually no synchronised guns left in service. In 1939 a decision was taken that ALL .303 inch ammunition was to be made to Air Service standards and marked with the full four digit date. In 1942 a further directive stated that from 1st january 1943 ammunition would continue to be made to the same standard but only marked with two digit dates.
Thus from 1939-1942 all ammo had four digit dates which explains why you find them on army ranges, nothing to do with the RAF."
So from 1939 (1 year after the limited introduction of the Browning MkII) all .303 ammunition was made to the same Air Service Standard regardless.
Here is a picture of the round I was referencing I was given a few by a friend and was told the story anyway they are WRA (Winchester Repeating Arms!) 1941 with a domed primer as per Mk VI round, and the 4 stabs holding the primer firm I guess when being slammed into the chamber.
Anyway that's about all I know on these as I cannot remember if it is listed in Temples books.
TIA
Post script ~I have an empty packet of the referenced Air Ministry ammo packet dated 10/28.
From what I've been led to believe, the crimp was to hold primers in after firing, keep them from backing out.
The crimp is quite important in machine guns.
In Browning-type guns, the cartridge, whether rimmed or rimless, is guided down the face of the bolt by a pair of "slots", one either side of the bolt-face.
When any centre-fire primer ignites, it tends to back out of the pocket. (The forces involved are sufficient to drive a rimless case forward enough to push the shoulder back a couple of thou.) The (hopefully) subsequent firing of the main propellant charge slams the case rearwards, thus "re-seating" the primer (and blowing the shoulder forward again and slightly stretching the web.
Amongst the LAST things you need in a Browning-type gun is loose primers. The case if fairly firmly retained at the instant of firing, but Murphy was an optimist.
In the event the primer fires, but the main charge does not, and the primer is not firmly "retained", there MAY be sufficient extra drag from the "backed out" primer to interfere with the air-powered re-cocking mechanism in a wing-mounted gun. Furthermore, the next LAST thing you need in said gun is a bullet forced into a "worn" throat by primer ignition alone and followed up by the successful firing of a fresh round after "re-charging; Brownings are TOUGH, but there are limits....... Hence "aviation-grade ammo".
With a wing-mounted MG, it also gets a little tricky to "lift the feed cover and clear the stoppage", especially at 300 Knots and 15,000 ft Altitude.
That's what I understood Bruce...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
This practice of crimped primers existed long before the brownings . Any primer falling out of the case during ejection and into the action of any gun can really jam things up.
Chris
As I said in post 28...not specific but general...
The problem of "Backing out Primers" in Airforce MGs, especially with US-made .303 ammo was first noted by the French, who were using Lewis and Vickers Guns in 1916, to supplement their clumsy Hotchkiss Guns in Aircraft..
The French found that they had to "Crimp" the Uncrimped US ammo ( 1915-16 HS) especially when they used Primed cases to load up special Loads ( Tracer, AP and Incendiary) with imported British Projies. This problem had already been noted by the Brits, with the Mark VII ammo in aircraft guns ( and to a Lesser extent in Ground Guns)...the formerly uncrimped Domed .250" Primers were then made "flat faced" and "Ringed" in ( circular Primer crimp). The French continued "Over-crimping" the US ammo with the Large Rifle Boxer Primer ( both three and four stab crimps.)
Of course, the Germans had already independently noted the problem as far back as the 1890s, with Patrone 88 in both Bolt and MGs...and had added two solutions , the "Mit rille" ( serrated mouth crimp) and the Three stab Primer crimp, for the "S" Patrone, by the time WW I got under way.
The Italians noted the primer back-out problem in the 18900s, with the 6,5mm case, and added the "circular channel" which acted as a self sealing wall around the primer on firing. (The Bolt face was also grooved to give the "Compressive" effect.)
The Japanese also added the "three stab" crimp to the M1905 cartridge ( T38,) by the time WW I started....
Only the US lagged behind...until large quantities of Aircraft TYpe M1906 was furnished by USCCo. in 1917 and 18, which had both the Head Groove AND the four-stab crimp to lock the primer in for this AirForce MG cartridge ( Marlins, Lewises, M1915 Vickers)..the US picked up these improvements from the French, who they relied on for a lot of Wartime Technical Support in France.
After WW I, nearly all nations used some form of special primer crimping for Aircraft ammunition (Ring or Stab) or heavily lacquered in a very tight fitting Primer. Some Nations (USA, Britain, France) Crimped all SAA, irrespective of use.
Doc AV
Excellent info throughout this thread by other forumers I appreciate the shared knowledge, I like campfire yarns and my fellow traveller when we go bush is like me "If it goes bang, like Lee Emery might say "Sir, we luv it."
I am not the type that expounds on why the universe is the way it is but go on printed matter and what those with the practical training and experience have on the subject.
But really guys/gals nothing beats the smell of freshly burnt gunpowder or the sound of a Lee Enfield Action stripping a round from the mag, I say this as an enthusiast and I am not trying to offend anyone here who might have had their fair share of the smell and the lead flying all about them. :thup: