What's this Enfield bayonet please?

Hi everyone,
I'm a newbie here and this is my first post. I'm embarrassed to say I joined just to ask about this bayonet but having looked about the site I might try and find the time to stay a member. Any how to the bayonet.
Known history is that it belonged to my Granddad who fought in the army and royal flying corps (observer) in WWI. Where he got it from I have no idea. I first saw it about 35 yrs ago & after he'd died and it was then as it is now. It came to me about 10yrs ago.
I've googled ' Enfield bayonets' and am none the wiser. It has some similarities with the P1903 lee enfield and what I've gleaned from the few markings they support this. One side is marked E.R. beneath a crown which supports an Edwardian date. No other marks this side. The other side is marked EFD beneath the broad arrow and just above the grip is a small crown with C6 or CG or G6 below and another? undecipherable mark just below that. Other marks are an L (land forces?) on the back of the tang and on the scabbard (on the leather) a crown over ER over 7. There are a couple of other marks on the leather but too faint to make out. The throat of the chape has a serial number? 1167 X. That's it marking wise. I have no idea if it ever had a cross guard. The scales have some age & extend over the area it should occupy. Unfortunately the pommel end has been saw off. The shape of the grip and scabbard chape fit well with the P1903 as does the centre ridge part of the blade, but the drain hole is rather too near the wood, from what I've seen so far and that clipped point! This isn't a P1903 that's had a nose job, lease ways not a cheap grind on one anyway. Why not? I hear you ask. Look at the centre ridge line, it curves up following the cutting edge. There's not the metal to do that by grinding from a straight centre ridge.
I did, tentatively, try to the grips off to look for more markings but the screws wouldn't budge. I'll try again if you chaps think it might be worth it. Well that's it. I'm all ears - well eyes then.
Now lets see if I can do the pic's. Gosh, success?

Looks like a very chopped pattern 03 to me from the shape of the blade. But give a soldier a hacksaw and anything is possible

It's a fighting knife made from a model 1888 bayonet.

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------

He beat me to it

I tend to agree with an 1888 pattern. But, who knows? When it was made they may still have been everywhere? And an armorer may have done it for him...:madsmile:

I will back Peter L on this it one is a cut down somewhat 03 as the 1888 had brass riveted hand grips and not the cross bolt and nut through the handle guess they modified it out the of need to get close and personal with the enemy in the trench or at night yikes:

Cinders is right, that Peter is right...I went to look at Old smithy's site and he has the 1903 there and the 1888 above it... BAyonet Collection Presentation This page. Kind of a rough job though. I'd have left the quillon there...and pommel...

Thanks everyone. Consensus is that it's a chopped P '03. I find BAR Jim's suggestion that it was done by an armourer most interesting. The point clip, if that's not it's original shape, has been done very well and the armourer route is a convincing explanation for what appear to be it's original extended scales. The sawn off pommel could have occurred at any time later. I'll try and get the scales off soon and see what's beneath.
Thanks again all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buntline

Jim's suggestion that it was done by an armourer

---

I was being a smart @rse...that was a toss at Peter, but he didn't bite. Hard to say who did it. But realisticly, the work would be done by armorers or somewhere in workshop...

Interesting idea, no matter how it came about. I'll try and get those scales off over the weekend, see if that tell me more.

Jim.

Got the scales off. Here's the pic's. I've had a much more careful look at it again & am sure it's what it looks like & has been telling me - a chopped '03. Who ever did it went to a lot of trouble blending that mid rib into the point not to mention getting a snug fit of the custom scales around the step in the metal where the quillon was removed. Then someone (surely not the same person?) hacked the pommel off! New markings found are 1 & 03 beneath the crown & ER (under the scales in front of the quillon scar) & 6 (or 9) near the rear scales screw hole. I'm taking 03 as 1903. 1 is ? On the other side & dotted about under the scales are N, Q, O, U and a circle (near the Pommel). There are also, smaller and fainter, a small crown (?) over a 2 over M. Above the quillon scar but under the wood is an X (bend proof?) and the other letter in the group C6 or CG etc is an E (Enfield inspection mark?). Comments if you will? Thanks again. Jim.

Yup, they melted the braze or solder...and slid the crosspiece off. Ground the pommel square...

Continuing on from what BAR said above ....... and rendered it worthless!

Or maybe it was one of those cut down ones used by the tunnellers who used those ........... Oh don't get me going again! Its been a nice sunny day here in Oxfordshire so far. Have an equally nice sunny rest-of-the-day wherever you are. Took the '69 Mini Cooper out too. LOADS of assorted MG's around here today coming back to their ancestral home

I've just been looking again a web page with the markings explained - well some. Of interest are the date codes, they give a manufacture date for this of Jan 1903. When was the P 1903 pattern accepted ? If this is preproduction it explains why that drain hole in the pommel is farther forward than it should be & possibly why it was chopped, not issued & sitting about in an Enfield workshop having served its purpose. Makes sense? And an even bigger loss of value! I've been looking P1888's, drain hole's roughly the right spot so back to nothing special, a v.late P1888 chopped up, later type grip screws. So first responders were right after all, I'm not looking anymore - that'll do me. Thank you all yet again.

:rofl::rofl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

used by the tunnellers

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buntline

P1888 chopped up

---

Don't know where he got that idea...here's a 1903... Attachment 53996

The 1888s are different... So now he doesn't know...

1888... Attachment 53997

These are both pilfered from Carl...

1903's used P1888 blades.

Yes the blade...but the oil hole is different and the whole pommel is different because of the mortise slot. Even the 1888 that has an oil hole is in a vastly different place...unless you can show me one like the 1903 hole...?

1888 on the top and the 1903 0n the bottom for you to peruse and question the thing is the 1903 never had a Quillon to grind off like the 1907 pattern did.

According to Skennerton's bayonet book P1903's were converted P1888 bayonets or made up using P1888 blades. I realize the pommel and crosspiece are different.
Quite a number of these bayonets (1888 and 1903) were converted to fighting knives, some were done very professionally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

for you to peruse

---

I had a 1903 blade and scabbard for quite a number of years. It was a prize in my collection, along with a hook quillon 1907...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gsimmons

some were done very professionally

---

Yes they were...

My head hurts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buntline

My head hurts.

---

Have a Whiskey, that helps sometimes...

I think that was the problem. :bash:

Its Friday Yay!:cheers::runaway:

I have just been going over this thread again to try and reassure myself I'd got it right. I'm sure that this is a late 1888 made into a fighting knife. But this review has raised a new question. Fighting knives - would this be an official thing or would some erstwhile squaddie be having a quite word with the armourer?

I always think of these so called 'fighting knives' converted from other things as things made by the back-at-camp commandos who want something to take home to impress their mums or little brothers. Just my view of course as one who was always taught that a bayonet was the very last means of mechanical defiance. Take it off the rifle and, well.............. Surely better to make/take a xxxxing big pick axe handle

In the US at least was actually quite an industry cutting down swords and bayonets to make them into knives of different types not just fighting knives. Yes, a lot of them would have been made in the division shops by individuals in their spare time. My dad made a letter opener from a .30 cal. Cartridge and salt and pepper shakers from .50 cals. I never saw those, but my brother has the letter opener.

I've avoided saying it but to me, it is a post-service modification, just as likely done by someone in the safety of their basement workshop at home. But, it does look interesting.......

The value is low, for what ever reason it was converted by whomever it was done.

Unless of course if there is written documentation and photographic evidence from the fellow who did the work with him in uniform showing him "at the Front" with the modified knife in hand, then it could increase the value a little. :madsmile:

You just said what I diplomatically didn't say gew!

Years ago I bought a US M1905 bayonet from a guy, he had two, one he had molested when he was a (boy) Scout so he would have the most wicked knife to take to Scout camp. There are uncountable possibilities on how this came into its current appearance

Thank you all for those views. My Granddad was in WW1, first in the trenches then in the early airforce as observer in various planes, he'd have been 16 when it started . He survived and went into engineering, civil then working for Armstrong Whitworth building aircraft nr Coventry during WW2. So it's quite possible this was his own handiwork at some period. As for value - academic interest only. I don't have many of his things so I'll be keeping this one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

You just said what I diplomatically didn't say gew!

---

Yes Peter, sadly, I have never been accused of being a diplomat.

Buntline, no offense intended, it is an interesting item and you have posted the story about your Grandfather who sounds like he "saw the elephant" more than once as a young man and went on to serve his country again during the Second Great Debate, a good man. Preserve it in his memory and pass it on to the next generation. :cheers:

None taken, gew. Granddad was one for making & mod'ing stuff - unfortunately (or not) it seems congenital.