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Hi,
Does anyone know how the pull lanyard on a British 2" mortar is constructed?
From photographs they look like a cotton cord plaited to create a 4"ish long pull cord, I can't find a part listed, so are they local armourer manufactured, and if so how and from what material?
All information very gratefully received.
The landyard was made from a length of pullthrough. It was threaded through the hole in the firing lever and the end woven back into itself. What most of us used to do was use the looped flanelette end of the pullthrough as the 'long' end so that you only had to weave one end (the end that went through the fiting lever hole) back into itself. Done zillions of them!
Thanks Peter, I shall have a go and post a picture when I'm done, please be kind on your feedback as this will be my first one!
Regards
Peter
A brilliant piece of kit, but with everything...................... as long as the user could equate to the "Angle of Dangle and knew his ranges" you could drop the round into a 10 foot circle at 600 metres
Have a lanyard but no lever to fit it to.
Lever is absolute simplicity itself to make. Never made one but seem to remember that they were a tubular shaft with squared off centre welded at an angle to the lever. Some were actually square section shaft which makes it even easier. Small nut and washer secures it to the sear axis point. How's that for memory?
GREAT bit of kit - as was the 51mm mortar. We called them 'section artillery' but like the 51mm mortar, they're obsolete now. The Marines wanted to keep them but one of the day dreamers at Abbey Wood said that the AGL would do all the mortar would. Nearly............ Except carry as much dynamite and pack as big a punch
Nearly became my personal weapon at the time, I did better with the 2" then I did with my SLR which was a dog, but deadly at close range(0-100m)
The times I jumped in with that little baby. I did use HE on occasions but mostly effective for PARA ILLUM and SMOKE for attacks.
Not called Dead Eye Dick for nothing...........or was that the Accurate Prick on the Mortar:dancingbanana::dancingbanana:
The lever looks very simple to reproduce, not a problem to make but i could do with a few measurements so its in keeping with an original lever. I will be visiting the War and Peace show in a few weeks time, i will either find one or take some measurements from an original on display, no doubt some one will have one for inspection.
Anyone know how to date a 2inch mortar ie by the serial number just as someone is doing with the Brengun serial numbers. Did Canada make any 2 inch mortars during the war.
I don't know if we made them, but we had them. We used the same thing for years and just recently brought back the bipod and baseplate for them instead of the little base so they have some real use.
Took a while to get hold of a suitably aged pull through, but I managed to find a double pull through for a Bren for £2.00...which also gave me plenty of raw material if I needed lots of practice.
Attached photo shows what I ended up with, having to learn to splice as I went along - as it was a Bren pull through I did a short bottom splice to tidy it up along with the top loop through the lever.
Hopefully that looks the part, but happy to take feedback in case there is room for improvement :)
Exactly as they were!
Just the firing lever i am after. I belive there were 3 types of firing lever, first type being the round knob with a corse knurled edge , second type a combined knob and lever, the last just the lever and lanyard. Was the knurled knob still in use on the 2 inch mortar during its last days in service?
Thanks Peter - all credit to your expert tuition :-)
I have now found a lever also the round firing knob.
Round firing knob......... MUST be some foreign addition in my opinion..., same as the round knobbed Sten cocking handles! I never saw a round knobbed one in my service but I did see a few round knobs! Not in the MR series of parts lists either although these weren't updated from the early/mid 60's I suspect. ope....., I dealt with quite a few and even painted the white alignment line on just as many too but never saw a round-knobbed firing lever
The round knob was used during the war on early mortars, seen on the base plate mortars with traversing gear and on spade plate models as well. In the 1966 service manual not the pamphlet, they show the base plate model with a round knob that looks like a course cog for grip which is then later modified with a piece of staight metal screwed in place and eventualy replaced with the conventional lever. Did you ever see any 2" mortars with this early base plate, funny how its shown in the service manual.
Not a foreign addition.
The only ones in service in my time were the spade type base plates of the late Mk2***, the Mk7* and 7** plus the Mk8 and 8*. The type you show (the Mk7) in the photo above was obsolescent in the early 50's and obsolete when the last Universal Carriers went out of service in the mid 50's - according to my training notes. But even then, the photo of the Mk7 in my Armourers training manual shows a landyard operated lever firing lever. Over to you!
What is interesting is the carrying handle of the mortar in the photo. These were salvaged from the rear butt grips from Mk1 Bren guns
My mistake not a 1966 manual but a 1960 handbook. There is the 1939 1944 hand book and the 1946 service manual all showing the firing knob or grip. It seems that the firing lever was introduced around early 1943 which repflaced the grip on later models as well as those in current use at the time during refits etc. Looking at the grip design over the lever, the lever shaft is square secured with a nut, where as the grip is a round shaft with a screw at right angles to the shaft to hold it in place. I suspect that this screw was a weak point in the design in that it snapped the shaft or screw with constant use. I my notes somewhere I read that the grip was not very user friendly in wet and cold weather the lever being a more positive way to fire the mortar in an emergency ie by hand if the fingers were out of action that would normally be essential to operate a grip. I looked in the manuals and could see no carrying handle that would relate to the Bren butt grip maybe it was a later addition from 1960 onwards. The picture posted 1942 shows an early Mk2 with flared/bell barrel, cleaning rod brackets and the rare lesactic sight used on the Bren guns.
In your picture, that is definately the BRACKET, butt, grip from the early Mk1 Bren guns fitted to a band around the barrel. However it does look as though the contoured wooden 'grip' part has been replaced with a length of metal pipe! But when the Bren rear grip was declared obsolete (together with the equally useless butt strap) they were to be returned to Ordnance solely for use on the 2" mortar. The fact that the bracket is a Bren part is also contained within the Armourers instructional notes and it is for this reason, that a) they continued to use the old Ordnance part number instead of the MR number VAOS prefix and b) the butt brackets were all(?) returned to Ordnance that makes original ones, made at BSA incidentally, so rare and sought after by Bren fiends. Original Butt straps on the other hand are easy to obtain. There is also a really cheapo strap mounted pressed steel carrying handle listed too with the usual WSE annotation - WSE= when stocks exhausted
I can't see the lensatic sight. The EMER just shows a cheap pressed steel strap-on SIGHT, No3/all marks. I don't think that's a flared barrel. If it's the same as ours at Warminster, it is just an in-built strengthening rim to beef up the muzzle end.
Who'd have thought that there was so much nerdy stuff about 2 mortars? Maybe it's time for a little paperback booklet Topper..................
We have loads of images Peter in the PARA Archive of "Nurdy" hairy arsed PARA's, not the posed attached arms images like above lol if you need them for your periodical, no charge of course ;):)
I think the lensatic sight went out of use very early in the war, quite a complicated bit of kit (seen one on eBay not that long ago and didn't reach reserve even at £1200).
My explanation of the so-called flare barrel which I mean a rim around the muzzle end which you correctly explained is what I was trying to put in words.
Quite a few variations to the mortar since it was introduced especially the breach and barrel threading, first the threads were fine continuous, then course square continuous then course square and interrupted. The course continuous and interrupted can be used together.
Actual as you say there is quite a lot of info about this mortar, different variations, loads of interesting developments with the rounds it fired especially interesting notes about the tail units (I always thought until recently that the No:4 tail unit seen on most post war rounds was a post war improvement over the steel No :3 tail unit of war time use. I just bought three mint para illum and one white multi star rounds at the war and peace show all with No: 4 tail units marked S&W dated 43, 44 and 45. Just goes to show you learn more as time goes by)
I was, years ago going to write a book about the 2"mortar but there was so much to write it would have been thicker than your Sten gun book you done and that doesn't include the Mk 1 trench 2" mortar of WW 1 that fired the toffee apple bombs.
I think I will have buy myself an anorak.
Forgot to mention that there was a silenced 2"mortar made in in the workshops during the Italian campaign. Caption on back of photograph states that it works. Another one to add to the book.
That I'd have to see...Quote:
Originally Posted by Topfmine
SILENCED mortar............ I'm with you BAR!!!!! Contrary to the photo caption, I think that the basic physics of such a notion would doom it from the start. As a rule of thumb the compression or plenum chamber must be capable of absorbing (I think the figure is...) 20x volumes of expended gas contained within the barrel and then it's got to vent that compressed gas to atmosphere in a controlled way. If you're going to hit 'em with a 2" mortar, they're certainly going to hear that when it comes in several seconds later! I wonder why they didn't just mortar them with a very accurate, tried, tested and well liked 3" mortar from a bit further out
Off track a bit and one for the ammo fiends. Anyone out there know the cut-off/obsoletion date for 2" HE. I never saw any in my service.
I know that the 2" mortar ammo was quite brutal at eroding the ignition chamber/breech part of the barrels and we had to do the examination of Ordnance every 250 EFC's (equivalent full charges) but a smoke or para-illum was only half an EFC as that's all we were using them for. They taught us to do all this barrel/tube measuring palava with the GAUGE, measuring bore and GAUGE testing straightness of bore and all of that stuff but as soon as you got into the big workshops, the gun-fitters used to do it all! Mind you, that was nothing to the complicxated method of testing striker protrusion and the force of blow of the striker. Another real palava!
The gun fitter types used to swear that the FULL square (I seem to recall that the thread was a 10degree modified square that was shock resistant) threaded barrels were considerably stronger than the interrupted barrels as the full threads were in effect an additional ring-of-steel collar just where it was needed. Maybe....., maybe not!
Writing a factual book is a good idea just so long as you avoid mission creep at all costs and stick to the facts and never but NEVER EVER just fill the last half with copies of the training pamphlets!
Peter,
We have the withdrawal date of HE in the archive somewhere.............. Wait Out
I was told by a an ex Reme armouer that we sold our HE stuff to Austrailia and had to buy it back from them for Aden, not sure of the full story. See this link, shows some later 60s 2 inch rounds Finally I Found Some 2 Mortars WWII.
As for the silenced 2" mortar i have a photo of it from the IWM, two guys kneeling beside it, info on back stating that it worked. looked quite bulky for practical use more experimental but its there in black and white, would post the picture but i may infringe IWM copyright, can give details of photo number or PM it. As for a book there is plenty of info at the public records office etc you wouldn't need to refer to field phamflets manuals for info.
---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------
Intresting notes about EFC'S have to make a note about that.
Mmmmmm REME Armourers don't deal with the ammo side of weaponry as a general rule. In fact I made it a hard and fast rule that they (the bomb jockeys or ammo techs) dealt with ammo and we dealt with the weapon and never the twain shall meet! I never went to Aden but it really wasn't 2" mortar country unless it was night time para-illum. PLENTY of action with the 3" though!
Silenced or even moderated, just consider the absolutely HUGE volume of explosive gas that you have to harness, capture and then release. The volume of gas that is going to send a Xlb bomb XX feet in the air and XX feet distance.............. There'd be no problem with the supersoniuc crack of course!!!!!!!
I suspect the REME armourer heared this by the grape vine from a bomb jockey just like other military myths, thats if its a myth (has to be reasearched could be true for all i know) ie throwning a loaded cocked sten gun through a window myth etc. As for weaponary used during Aden has to be looked into. It seems that the 2inch mortar was an imporatant bit of kit, why would they go on to develope the 51mm mortar (they did have HE rounds for the 51)
As with myths again it seems that someone was having a go at trying to silence the 2 inch, whether they suceeded or not i don't know. I would expect a large volume of gas from a 28 bore balistite round would be quite fierce, not sure if they messed about with the cartridge or used para illum or was the device on the mortar used to supress the flash at night rather than noise, again something to look into.
The 2" mortar was important but by the time the much improved 51mm came on stream ( 51mm is 2" by the way.....) there were already better ways of illuminating the night and the 81mm could lay a smoke screen too. The idea of shielding the blast of the mortar firing illum at night would be quite feasible. The last thing an enemy wants at night is to be lit-up. Maybe this is what the photo really was all about.
I will ask the ammo techs at Shrivenham about 2" HE. It might be a case like the Energa and 1.5" signal pistol illuminating rounds where they were declared obsolescent and thereafter the dwindling stockpiles just allowed to find their own way to eventually being obsolete
Interesting thread as my sons old school CCF still has a 2" mortar. As for any smoke or illum, all the Training WO will say is '....that's for me to know and you to think about!'
Each Rifle Company of 2 and 3 PARA in the Falklands had 10 rounds per Mortar 3 Mortars per Company ie one per Platoon. HE & PARA illum.
The 2" Mortar was withdrawn from 16 PARA Brigade/5Airborne Brigade latterly in 1994, so one has to assume that applied to all British Army Infantry Battalions.;)
1982...... Are you sure they weren't using the 51 by then Gil? Shrivenham are coming back to me re obsolescent date for 2" mortar HE.
So said, 51mm para/smoke ammo could be used with the 2" mortar or vice verca but NOT the other way around. But NOT HE either way round!
As certain as one can be:thup:
Wait out on this because some info is coming to light but we know the last date of manufacture of HE at ROF G. And it was WELL before '82
Did you see the BOCN link about the HE rounds, what did you think. I was wondering did we manufacture rounds for overseas country's even after we stopped using the 2" mortar.
No. Production of 2" HE ceased in the UK in 3/69 at Glascoed
If you look on the BOCN forum link the 2" mortar destroyed at Otterburn was dated 6/69 the tail fin was dated 11/61 Glascoed marked.
Ok....., OK..... 3/69 - 6/69 - 11/69!!!!!!! What is BOCN? My dictionary says that it is the British Oil and Cattle Nutrition standard (for animal feeds.....)
He's referring to the British Ordnance Collectors Network forums
Inert Ordnance Collectors
Ah....., so my cattle food was not quite correct. But close!!!!! The Ord Officer who oversaw the destriction of the last 2" HE tells me that the last batch of HE was G-D B-16967 dated 6/69. TNT filled with a No161 Mk4 1/69 dated fuze. All that mumbo-jumbo is totally above my head but if that's what the official records say, then that's fair enough to me I say!
Well either memories are fading or something is wrong with those dates on H.E.
I have spoken to several lads now who went down south with 2 and 3 PARA and all agree it was the 2" mortar that was taken not the later 51".
But they all independantly stated it was only H.E. taken with them and if they wanted PARA ILLUM or SMOKE the Mortars Platoon would provide cover, as the lads tabbing had enough to carry already, with link etc
I was not aware of any 2" HE being issued for the Falklands, but it's not impossible and would explain why stock was retained until ten years ago when we blew the last of it up at Otterburn!
There were all sorts of problems with the 51mm HE - it had a pre fragmented body along the lines of the L2 grenade and the BL755 cluster bomb. The frag pattern was supposed to be as good as the 81 HE, but that may have been marketing fluff.. There were at least two versions of the 51mm HE - one conical and one like a (hmmm how to be polite here?) - "cylindrical with a swollen head"..!
I had always assumed that the 2" HE was held against some "Speshul People"'s requirement! .. but I can assure you that it's all gone now!
I of course meant 51mm not 51" to ensure the difference was clarified, from old and new.
Just to clarify, it was 2" HE used down south, so your info does corroberate the stored use of the round right up until late 90's and beyond;)
Been away for two weeks, interesting stuff about the 2" mortar, a lot to learn the more you delve and collect. Keep it going.
Your Marketing stuff parable with ammo reared its ugly head with the Grenade MG too when those supposed fantastic ranges it was supposed to reach out to just didn't add up. Or it might be that they just got metres mixed up with centifeet! Never my thing but I used to look at drill and inert rounds and think to myself '.....how the xxxx do they get that range out of this much propellant? Are they using dynamite?'
Try to wrack your brains with this teaser bombdoc. When did the last Energa stuff leave us. I never saw any after the mid/lateish 60's and the SASC docs report that it wasn't taught after that when all the L1A1 rifle launchers were withdrawn. Zillions of the launchers and leather cases seemed to end up at Ord disposals at Thatcham. Only they weren't 'disposed' but just sat there in 'the cage'.
Don't know about the Brits or others , but WW2 USGI mortars used Ballistite . The closest thing it compares to that we'd be familiar with is Hercules Bullseye with an added water repellant .
Chris
I thought that Balistite was a slow burning powder as Hercules Bullseye is a fast pistol powder. The Brit Balistite 28 gauge cartridge also contained black powder to aid ignition to set off the Balistite. The way the black powder was arranged in the earlier cartridges Mk 1 47 and 55 grains caused the early Mazak fins to split upon firing causing irregular flight patterns of the bomb. Still using the same Balistite charge weight 47 and 55 grains the new Mk 2 cartridges had the black powder arranged in a different way inside the cartridge. The No1 tail unit (not Mazak) had a extra row of flash holes drilled into the fin, the No 2 tail fin (Mazak) tail fins were thus marked in red paint on on of the fins for each bomb until the steel tail fins the Mk 3 and 4 were made. They also made a 17 and 18grain Balistite cartridge for vehicle use to propell 2" smoke from tanks. There was also a 73 grain cartridge for the signal success round which was a multi star round in red and green with a parachute. The equivalent North American powder to balistite was know as just Hercules.
Balistite was slow....compare to TNT and such . My info came from the Hercules factory techs 30-40 years ago from talking to the old timers there who had made it long ago . I believe that black powder might have been in there , too . I recall something about a small 5 grain-ish charge in a bag next to the primer ? Seems that later in the war they added a small straw tube up the center above the primer to get a better burn. It would allow the primer flash or BP flash to get to more of the charge at once.
Chris
This small tube of gunpowder up the centre above the primer was the same arangment as the Mk1 47 and 55 grain cartridge which ignited the Ballistite too quickly causing higher pressure. The gunpowder arrangement was changed so the Ballistite sat on top of the gunpowder slightly slowing the rate of combustion. I wonder how Ballistite would compair in burn rate to the modern Hurcules powder such as Bullseye, red dot, blue dot, Unique, 2400 etc in that kind of order?
Phew........... Can you see now why Armourers never touched ammo stuff and ammo techs never touched anything to do with weapons
So when is the new book coming out then.:D