Tunneler's cut down rifle

Thought I'd post it here because the original thread has moved to the previous page.

This is the the point I made back in 2009 about this very subject:

WW1 Tunnelling Companies - Shortened SMLE
In the Imperial War Museum Review No.6, pages 4-15 is an article by Bryn Hammond - Professionals and specialists: military mining on the Western Front. It describes combat underground and a cut-down version of the .303 rifle is mentioned. Note 54 refers: A rifle of this type is illustrated in the Visit Diary of First Army Controller of Mines. PRO WO158-137. So if someone fancies a visit to Kew to find out more...!

So who is visiting Kew in the not too distant future - maybe now that Roger is a man of leisure....!

Cheers Nige. Incidentally, Major Stokes who sketched the 'home made' cut down monstrosities that the Canadian listeners had concocted served as a Trooper in the Boer War, then as an officer in both WW's finishing up as Brigadier General RSG Stokes. IIRC he was also at one time one of His Majesty's Inspectors of Mines. He was also a very prominent mover & shaker in the South African Gold Mining community & finally returned to the UK dying at the ripe old age of 96 in 1979. In the meantime he collected various gongs bestowed upon him by a grateful establishment. His obituary is easy to find if you Google his name.

I might just take you up on it..........maybe you could wangle a day off work & come with me?

As an aside I've also got to visit Worcester to see if I can find out anything more about my paternal grandfather, a regular in the Worcestershire Regiment, 12043 Serjeant William Francis Brookes, kia 1/11/16. Whilst on The Somme last week I took a map that a rather more computer literate friend had come up with, in which he transposed a trench map from November 1916 over a current Google Earth satellite photo. As a result I was able to follow the old paths to get within 200 yards of the spot where my grandfather lost his life. Quite a strange & moving experience. I could not get right up to the exact spot as it is in a field currently under crop.......but come the Autumn.......!

ATB.

Roger, Nigel

Not a man of leasure but am taking the oppertunity of job share and should be be starting this month (should be this week), not taking it to go to places such as Kew, its to spend more time time with the little one but will be able to go out my way before work starts etc so no probs there if you need a helping hand as I need to research a few medal groups I have so a visit to Kew is on the cards + need to trace the records and log books of one of my old ships as it went to razor blades in 1992/ 1993, I was on it in the Gulf War......

Cheers Geoff. Maybe if you do plan a trip down there before I get round to it (quite possible!!) you could let Nige or I know........? I guess, at least in theory, having the specific reference for the location of the document should make its retrieval a fairly straight forward matter.

Still no answer from the Royal Engineers museum

I wonder why................

I can imagine reading on a Mini forum in 90 years time of someone who has discovered the remains of deep bronze green paint on an old Mini Moke or 850 saloon - that used to belong to the Army. As sure as god made little green apples, someone will read up that the Army used these 'cross country' mokes to carry Charlie G or Wombat anti-tank guns. and this that and the other. You know where this is going don't you............

Then someone will say that there is a trials report 'somewhere' that not only were they trialled, that they had 60 of them. If the report is ever found, it probably won't report that they couldn't even carry 4x fully equipped soldiers on a ROAD, let alone across country. But in spite of the bleedin' obvious, that's how the Moke will go into history............

Now the tiny Haflinger on the other hand ......

BTW the RE Museum is very large, has a huge archive, mostly undigitised and most of it "behind the wire", very few staff and none to spare.

I know we're - or certainly I am - flogging a dead horse here, and I am unrelenting in my criticism of the sheer absurd stupidity of even a sniff of this farce being fact, on the other hand, it'll pay us not to overlook the bleedin' obvious. Tunnelling gun......................
Oh yes........ the offer to fire one in a simulated tunnel situation is still open

Peter,
You make I laugh:lol::lol:
As I started this debarkle of a thread in my disbelief of such a Lee Enfield creature ever present on this earth in such good condition for sale, we must wait at least for the experts to report.
It has been said and was probably a "Cowboy" weapon to tuck inside your mining overalls
I have faith in the oldest Regiment even though 9 Squadron drunk more than us:surrender:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

I have faith in the oldest Regiment

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Oldest Regiment? I beg your pardon. For the oldest regiment in the British Army, take a look to the left of this post.

Just one minor correction Gil and those others with a wild imagination and who still inhabit and orbit another planet. There is no expert report. If this is confirmed, it will be the report of an imbecile. Nobody in their right sound or sane mind would ever shoot one of these make believe 'things' in an enclosed tunnel. Not twice! Or even once. And any dopey Officer of whatever rank who sanctioned such a sheer folly/stupidity would previously have lost his marbles and believe me, the chaps, no matter how servile, would tell him.

Get real chaps!

Major (later Brigadier General) Stokes didn't sanction it & I don't think anyone has ever alleged that he did - he simply was moved to sketch & refer to an example of one that he'd seen in the hands of Canadian tunnelling company listeners. His sketch & comments (made at the time) are in the War Diary that is now in the National Archives. I am sure that if the RE's had ever looked to develop any sort of official pattern of shortened rifle they'd have come up with something rather more workmanlike than the one with just a stub of a barrel that he sketched, but then again it was probably concocted off their own bats by tunneller OR's who were digging sewers or mining coal only a few weeks before, & who were hardly ballisticians.

Don't take this all tooooo seriously Roger....... As you say, they might not have been ballisticians of course and they might have been Geordies - but they weren't stupid!

I know I sit on the fence regarding this, mince my words a bit and remain non commital in my wavering belief, but this thing could take wings and become fact if we weren't robust. Especially if the RE Major 'seal of approval' takes off.

No offence taken at all Peter. Your replies are always amusing.;)

:madsmile: You make me laugh as well Peter with your comments, very valid though who in their right mind would be stupid enough to fire that abomination in a tunnel, make that a very small tunnel :clap:

Oldest Regiment I feel a **** fight about to start :bash::bash::bash:

Aussie,
Don't tell me you lot had a Willabong Mounted Troop before Beer Hunters London Regiment, commanded by Ned Kelly:lol::lol::lol:
otherwise I am making a tunnel gun and selling it on Ebay as a piece of history, with a free spade.
Afterall Buy one get one free cobbers:lol::lol::lol: