No 4 Mk 1 (T) just the rifle...without scope and mount just sold for $2,078.00 on GB.
IMHO - Quite an unexpected price point. I did not bid on this item. Adding this one to my graph. Congrats to the new owner.
Lee Enfield NO.4 MK 1 (T) .303 England 1944 : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com
Attachment 54754
A lot of money yes, but they don't come much crisper than that. Looks to be one of the 'scopeless' rifles. Very nice.
ATB.
Nice rifle... One question and apologies if it's been covered before..
Would it have come out of holland and holland with the 2 different colours of wood. For some reason I'd assumed a rifle would have arrived at H&H with all matching wood from its original manufacturer, which would have then stayed with the rifle during its conversion process.
Or were the scopeless rifles made from odds n sods at the end of the contract
Pretty sure I've seen the odd well used 4t's with non colour matching wood that still have the S51 and original serial number to indicate that they maybe un molested original h&h build.
So I guess my question is - did rifles commonly leave H&H with non colour matching woodwork & it's just the passage of time and battle and the odd tidy up and time in the BLO tank in service that makes them the same colour nowadays.
Cheers....
It all depends upon what you call 'colour matched' If you mean a lighter or darked shade of brown, then that was perfectly acceptable. Aesthetics don't have a big role to play in war!However, the what I'd call 'bleedin silly' scenario of an almost whiote and dark brown would not be acceptable. In service we would have a large linseed bath that contained a stain. But even then, some of the light woods just would not take it. Maple being the worst offender!
I thought when it hit $1k it was over priced.
Makes me feel good at the scoped ones I got at that price!
Nice rifle.
Thanks peter, that makes sense....70 years use and several linseed baths would work wonders on a nice even patina...
I have a question for everyone as I'm still relatively new to collecting. Why is the bolt hollowed out on this example? I thought that was only for jungle carbines and mismatched bubba pieces?
It's a long story but VERY briefly, manufacturers were allowed a relaxation in standards and could leave a hole or no hole as was their wish. Some utilised the hole as another mountinmg point within a jig so it remained throughout. Replacement bolts came from all the manufacturers and post war, the lightweight bolt for the No5 was declared obsolescent. Replacements were big hole, small hole or solid and guess what? We just fitted what was available from Ordnance and/or on the shelf!
Of course what Peter says is right, but sometimes prospective owners like to know if a rifle has its original bolt or not, & as most 4T's were set up on BSA produced rifles, & as BSA utilised the small hole hollowed out bolt knob throughout No4 production (or so I believe), it is fairly safe to say that a BSA 4T with a solid bolt knob has had a replacement bolt fitted. Just a useful rule of thumb when giving rifles the once over...........
ATB.
I take on board what Roger says but the trouble starts when the collector start searching for 'the right parts'. Then he fits them and re-numbers to suit and then tells everyone that it's 'original'. Well, I suppose it is........ but............
One more question for Peter if I may..
I realise quite often the armourers made do with what ever spares were available and I guess "force matched" if that is the right phrase by striking through any existing number.
But when dealing with the newer weapons where spares were more freely available did you generally get parts like bolts and barrels un numbered as new spares which would then just be stamped up when fitted & if so how quickly did supply of these items dry up.
Force matched didn't fit into our vocabulary but accurate hand fitting did. So that's how we fitted parts. Some weapons don't have matched bolts now...., like the L85 and L86 plus others. The parts come un-numbered unless they have been used previously and have been recirculated as spare parts stocks. The L96 sniper bolts and cocking piece shrouds were often used/part used stocks. When the EMER dictated it the parts would be fitted, gauged and only then, numbered to the master number of the weapon. Barrels (except for OHF barrels) now last as long as they are accurate and not due to some gauge limit as in the past. Guns that had two barrels like the Bren and GPMG would often wear one barrel out completely while the other was OK so we'd fit two NEW barrels and put the other good one on the shelf to match it with another part worn barrel later. Then the old number would be lined out.
No4 parts were never really in short supply but the problem, if it really was a problem, is that because they were well down the order of priorities, the spare parts could take a long time to come through so you always kept a decent stock in place and these would regularly consist of part worn parts. Sometimes a rifles would be returned to ordnance as BER/written off as just a body and barrel with the remainder cannibalised for spare parts. OR the defective body/barrel would go back as a mass of unserviceable parts tied together with wire!!!!! After all, the next stop was the hot axe
Thanks for that sir, makes interesting reading.
Must have been great having all the spares and tools to do the job :0)
No one seems to have spotted that he got a plastic carry case as well, could this explain the price paid???:madsmile:
WOW. I have one almost exactly like that in the same condition no scope and I paid 800 for it about 4 years ago on GB. I got one of Roger's mounts and Peter's scopes and it shoots like dream.
Please don't flame me for adding this post but it is something I have been thinking about.
Following on what Peter said about rifles being written off... How many T's are left?
Total production of the T was about 23,187 as of April 1946.
23,187 - 1200 L42A1 conversions = 21,987
Now the pure speculation part:
21,987 - 20% WWII attrition rate (-4397)
17,587 - after WWII attrition rate of say 5% from '46 to '66 - 879
Total left 16,507 - now the bubba effect takes place which IMHO is more destructive than anything previously. Following the 80/20 rule ( 20 percent do all the work and the other 80 percent are useless) Say the 80 %of bubba's sporterize, abuse and neglect and destroy the T's they get their hands on would mean that 13205 had their transport case thrown out, rifle destroyed through neglect, conversion to a deer hunting rifle and accidental destruction. Also throw in there the gov't confiscation and destruction of the rifles in U.K, Australia and and I believe Canada did so as well? The remaining rifles still with original scope, mount, rifle, transport case and scope case could be about 3321world wide? And I am just guessing about 10,000 mismatched scope to rifle, rifle with scope missing and the "Less T's" still out there.
This is just a hypothesis with no actual facts to back up this guessamate based on my life's observations. I know there are a lot if holes and assumptions. This is only posted as a conversation starter. Anyone else ever think about how many T's may still exist? What is your hypothesis?
Corco, there is one number of which I am certain: more than 21,987 people are quite confident that they own an original No4(T)...