Enfield No4 Mk 1* Savage sniper

I picked this up from a local gun show last weekend. I wasn't sure if the rifle was real or not, but felt pretty good about the scope and mount. But from talks with folks on GunBoards and MD Shooters, this is a true Savage sniper built in the US and shipped to England sans scope. I was also told that Warren Wheatfield and Peter Laidlaw were the real experts and hung out here. So I hope they will see this and comment. :) (I'm not a photographer...)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d4b87e8e-1.jpg

Scope side. No 4 Mk 1* and no T mark. Is missing the standard Holland & Holland marks okay for the Savage models?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps1f5e-1.jpg

The scope is a No 32 Mk 3.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bb7eafd4-1.jpg

Scope mounts are X801 and X802. The front of the bolt does not have an S (as is my understanding that the H&H ones do) but has two 3's, one upside down and one on it's side.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...69a67369-1.jpg

The scope if pretty clear, with the cross wire not quite level. Sorry about the glare on the bottom part.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f69fe7f5-1.jpg

'S' mark on the front band. I assume that is the Savage mark.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...469294a2-1.jpg

Marks just rearward of front band. Looks line 'N' '49' 'the crown' and '6C'.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f14a8a83-1.jpg

Marks at front of receiver. I believe this is the mark showing the military sold it into civilian use, correct?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6a13b5b8-1.jpg

Marks just rearward of trigger guard. The squared S for Savage again?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3239b505-1.jpg

The S51 stamp.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b2205fcd-1.jpg

Rear band. No TR stamp. The England stamp showing it as a pre-68 import, correct?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps36b5-1.jpg

Bolt number. Force matched?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b0369e77-1.jpg

The cheek rest was replaced or remounted at some time. You can see the marks of the old one. I don't know if it can be determined if this cheek rest is a replacement made recently or an original model.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps9dbc-1.jpg

You can see the outline of the old cheek rest here also. From what I know about the screws, they look correct.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsb590-1.jpg

This is my second T, my first was picked up at the same show last year, but had no scope, mount or cheek rest. Is this scope correct for this rifle? If not, maybe I'll move it to my other one. What do you think?
Thanks,
Paul :)

My only comments are that for obvious reasons, we never saw scopeless No4T's in service. The cheek rest is clearlt a repro or otherwise not correct. Look at photo 4. What is that protruding from the rear of the bolt head above the gap in the guide rail?

I would say that while the telescope is an original Mk3, it certainly ain't original on your rifle as it has come from rifle C-39812.

Thanks for chiming in Peter. I'm not sure what you're seeing on the bolt, so I've added this pic in the hopes it will help.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5d153f40-1.jpg

Is there another view I can give you?

6pack, I believe he is talking about this piece protruding from the bolt head.(see pic)

Attachment 55067

Al

Thanks Al. It appears to be part of the extractor. I can push it forward a little. On your blow-up, you can follow that piece through to the front of the bolt head where it's rests on the extractor.

PS: how do you post a pic like you did? That seems to be a hell of a lot better than how I did it. :)

Whatever it is, it shouldn't be there!

It looks like some sort of makeshift extractor spring that someone has inserted instead of an original. I've got tons of nos originals if you need one at the huge pricey sum of $10 each. Your barrel bands are also on backwards. Screw heads should face left on all Lee Enfield rifles. Other than that, it looks like a decent H&H converted "less telescope" No.4Mk.1*T with an original bracket and Mk.3 scope. The cheekiest is a replacement, possibly hand made. Good quality replacements can be had to fix that. Note the British walnut replacement forend. Many Savage forends were replaced at H&H because the stocking up of the birch ones was unsatisfactory. It's not the first I've seen and the examiner's mark is proof it's original as done at H&H.

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------

cheekrest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 6pack

Thanks Al. It appears to be part of the extractor. I can push it forward a little. On your blow-up, you can follow that piece through to the front of the bolt head where it's rests on the extractor.

PS: how do you post a pic like you did? That seems to be a hell of a lot better than how I did it. :)

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You're welcome. When posting, use the "Manage Attachments" function. Pretty straight forward from there.

Attachment 55096

Al

Thanks all. I do believe after more digging that it is a broken extractor spring. Brian, you have a PM incoming. :)

All I can say is, it`s a good looking rifle !....................

Nice looking weapon, I would see about the scope though, it has been said Mr Peter Laidler knows a thing or three about them !:D

But there are plenty of scope fixers in the US too.......

Sorry Peter thought you might like to try your hand again at straightening the fencing wire and the strainer post, sorry bloke but I am in Aus :rofl: though the USA is on the bucket list Dusty Creek sounds just the shot

Does repairing/restoring the scope hurt the value?

Nope...... But one that is faulty definately does! Everyone who owns an L42 has a restored scope on it, albeit that it was done in the early/mid 70's or so! No sign of them depreciating yet. Sorry to sound a bit flippant but that's how it is

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

But there are plenty of scope fixers in the US too.......

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Was unaware you'd moved across the pond............

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 6pack

Does repairing/restoring the scope hurt the value?

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IMO, it increases the value. Provided the repairs/refurb was done right by someone that knew what they were doing, that is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Everyone who owns an L42 has a restored scope on it, albeit that it was done in the early/mid 70's or so!

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I know of one that'll be getting the full monty here shortly in 2014 or so.:rolleyes:

Very nice unit and even though a miss-matched it is still very nice. One of my very early ones is also a miss-match. At one time it was thought that none were ever scoped up but evidence has surfaced over the years to prove otherwise.
The Savages seem to run in small lots (exact lot size as yet to be determined) and I know that some of the very early Savages (under 200) were scoped up, then another run in the 15000 series and again later in the run.
You also have a decent looking scope and the Mk. III are nice to work on and can be resurrected from not much more than a serial number.
Sorry for being late to jump into this one, but have been away and busy.

Thanks again for all the input!

No worries on 'sounding flippant' Peter. From some of your posts I took it to be part of your personality and nothing derogatory. :) And I just ordered one of your books on the scopes. :thup: I'll let my excitement settle down at this find and then may follow up with a refurbishment order.

I just WISH that forumers wouldn't say that I fix them....., as if I enjoy it. I can't bloody stand it.

Picture 6, if the top front handguard is touching the foresight, you need to fix that.

Thanks for noticing ssj. There is about a half mm between them, maybe less. Holding a flashlight behind it, I can clearly see all around the barrel. Is that separation enough, or is there a set distance?

No No Peter we never said you fix them.....what we are saying that you repair them, bring them back to Military spec so they work correctly, with a touch of the old school this is the way I was brought up as allot of others were in the boomer years, sadly now its all computers.

Here is a thought that will make us all go pale those new 3D printers which can replicate anything how's about a fully fledged T all in plastic argh!, one thing I am glad I was hatched in the late 50's as all I see today is plastic cars, plastic houses and plastic people the old school and train of thought has or is slowly passing into oblivion, at times I feel a bit jaded at what was sacrificed for well lets just say the modern person.

Peter the reason people go to you is you know the ropes and even though you may get pi**ed at doing them you still do it as I like to believe somewhere deep down you may like the ol' T's (not the Ford) so you had better start writing all the little tricks down and publish it as a supplement to the No.32 booklet as the world will need it. :p

I think the working phrase is: "love to hate it"!

I got accused of being able to repair them once. Quite flattering unless you knew the context which I did. Unfortunately it was a bold faced lie!!

I got your extractor spring Brian and got it swapped in. It was a bit of a pain getting it in there, but I think I have it correct.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps2103-1.jpg

This is what was in there. Not a broken spring, but some other thing. It's about 1/2" long.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsd3ad-1.jpg

Thanks again Brian. :thup:

Wow, interesting attempt at a replacement. It looks much better now!

So I have this Savage and I have another BSA T without the scope. I only want one so I'm going to sell one of the rifles. Which would you sell and what do you think the value would be?
Thanks,
Paul

If I was you.......... Unless you REALLY do need the money, I'd just grease one up and put it away in the back of your safe on the basis that it don't eat nothin'. You can be rest assured that in 5 or 10 years time you'll be glad that you did. These things are always cheap - yesterday!

I hear you. Until I get into a larger house though, I promised my wife that I would only have one of each rifle. So one Enfield T is my limit for now. Although I could take one to my office...

If it was me I'd try & appeal to the wife's better nature & see if she'd agree to me keeping both. You don't know the response until you ask! But if you've really got to part with one, then assuming they're both in equivalent condition & shoot equally as well, then it really just comes down to personal preference; which one do you like more? It often comes down to personal reasons - I am partial to BSA made rifles, but then I was born & bred in Birmingham; Savage rifles are popular in the US & Long Branches in Canada, for similar reasons. I suppose the Savage may be scarcer than the BSA, but if your BSA is a 1944 or 45 rifle then the Mk3 scope may be more appropriate on it than on a 42 rifle that was not scoped up anyway.............swings & roundabouts really!

See if she'll let you keep 'em both! It's not a lie to say they're an investment.

I second that. I went through the same thing with a former wife. I could keep one of each, and I wound up selling a Trials No4T and kept the BSA in the crate with all of the goodies. It was almost like making me pick between two children. As Mr Laidler said, put it in the back of the safe, and watch your investment grow. Otherwise, you will regret it when you fork over double (or triple) money to replace what you sold. There are many voices of experience on this forum....

Good luck

If you have to ask permission to spend money you earned on a firearm, you married the wrong woman. I've been married for 35 years to the same woman and she knew I was a compulsive gun nut when she married me. Never been an issue in our house. Just IMHO.

It helps to cultivate an expensive hobby for the better half. That leads to the concept of reciprocal expenditures. Lately it's become common for Mrs. Ridolpho to mention that she's made a big fabric purchase for her quilting "hobby" and that it's only fair I look for a new rifle to buy for myself. As Ed Macmahon would say.....Hyoooooooooo.

Ridolpho

She's good, just a bit of a minimalist when it comes to stuff around the house. And I knew that going in. We all make compromises. But, we'll see.

She likes her clothes, and spends away on them. Coach bags being a particular weakness. However, when she brings new stuff in, she usually takes old stuff out. Her minimalist kicking in.:)

This is what I call minimalist. When my wife had our daughter Sarah she asked me to give up motorcycling as it'd become a bit of a death defying game. So I put the trusty old Norton 750 Commando into the depths of the pit in my garage, covered it up with the pit boards and just loooked at it occasionally and everyone was satisfied.............. Glad I kept it now!

My wife never complains that I buy guns or go to gun shows because I give her 10% of any profit I make on any rifle or a collection item I sell. I'm not a dealer but once in awhile I will sell a gun or something else and make more then I paid for it, as we all like to do. For example when I sold one of my full Enfield "T" sniper sets I bought many years ago she made out well on that one. She gets her 10% and calls it her "gun money also. It's her money to spend it on what ever she wants to. It works out real well and keeps the little woman happy. Ray

So after some consideration, the Savage will be placed into the collection as the scopeless version that she was and the BSA will wear the scope that came with the Savage.

If anyone is interested in a scope trade to get our setups closer to original I would be interested. My BSA is a 1943, and if I'm correct the Mk III scope is for a later dated rifle, correct?

The No. 32 Mk. III (aka No. 32 Mk 3) scopes came out late in 1944 apparently. They are usually found on 1945 dated rifles and earlier rifles that have been upgraded. A 1943 BSA would have had a No 32 Mk I scope.

My wife wants a new car for xmas so I said fine reciprocal is I buy the complete tracker rifle system, when she inquired as to the price of such a weapons system and I replied around 27K ~ 30K ummmm well lets just say the trackers safe for now but I am working on another angle a HT may be the cheaper alternate so for now the cars safe.

Good for you Peter L keeping it sadly I sold my VF-1000R, 2 Z-900's 1976 models (A kind women driver wrecked my first one with her car whilst I was on it) also sold my ZIR Mk I, boy I surely wish I had them now, missed out on a fully worked 750H2 Kwaka for $980.oo that was a tragedy

Hi 6pack; the Mk2 scope went into production during 1943 so either a Mk1 or a 2 would be appropriate if you want to start changing scopes over. However, if your BSA shoots well with the Mk3 I'd be inclined to leave well alone, as you can't guarantee that it will collimate with a new scope - at least not if you swap brackets over along with the scopes.

ATB.

Wise words there Roger. Not just wise, but VERY wise! If it ain't broke..............