Is this a Patchett sling?

This came attached to a Bren I picked up a few months ago, I never gave it much attention as I've see Sterling slings on Brens before. And I was a little silly in fitting it to a winch and using it to lift and move one of my 1940 Royal Enfields.

It was only during a lift a realised it had 2 clips instead of one and I notice it had a 'ME Co1944 ^' date. So, does this make it a Patchett sling? Its definitely not a STEN sling which has been re-stitched or had the clips cut in the loop to install them on the sling.

Attachment 55763

Never seen one like that but it could be one developed/designed for the Mk5 Sten gun where instead of having a normal rifle sling loop on the wood butt, some had as an alternative, just a wire triangular sling loop as part of the butt bracket. That way it took a TWO hooked sling instead of the usual.

Just saying that it COULD be. The down side is that two costly and strategcally important and rather complicated brass hooks would go against the grain for a £5:17/- Sten gun accessory. Mind you, so does a No7 bayonet really I suppose! The standard issue slings for Mk5's were the bog standard slings.

The first Patchetts didn't have slings and the first issues ones came with Sten slings too

Over to the Webbing experts..................

Is it possible that the second hook was sewn into place? Modified? What does the stitching look like at the sewn end?

Thanks Peter, I've no idea about this one either.

All the stitching matches for the whole sling so I doubt it's been restitched. I noticed that these clips were also used on the Vickers Berthier sling so it's possible that this sling maybe off something like else like a bag or load carry device.

In the station Armoury at RAF xxxxxx I saw a load of those old grey/blue RAF colour Sten slings that had been modified to take the brass hook and as such, were used on their L2 Sterling guns.

The strange thing was that their L2 guns came from RAF Ordnance with L1A1 bayonets and Trev Axxxxx, the bomb jockey/Armourer Sgt thought that there should be an adaptor to fit them onto the L2 guns. It was a great little wheeze because when we told him that there wasn't an adaptor thinggy he discovered that there was no simple facility to return/exchange the wrong bayonets for new No5's so Sgt Roger xxxx just wrote them all off, against the No5 part number.

Result. 17 new L1A1 bayonets in Armourers shop plus 3 'gifted' to Trev Axxxxx and they got 20 new No5 bayonets to boot. Everyone a winner!

Weren't the Canadian C1s designed to have a L1 bayonet (Or is that C1 bayonet?).

Yep........ The C1 gun was a very nifty fabricated design sanctioned by Sterling. Sterling insisted that every part that was identical to the UK L2A3, such as pistol grips, butts etc, had to be purchased from Sterling and that they couldn't make outside commercial sales. And Canada never broke that contract.

David Howroyd told me that Sterling could make their 'Rolls-Royce' finish Sterling guns as cheap if not cheaper that the Canadian fabricated gun. I'm not sure that would stand up to any degree of close scrutiny or production cost analysis. But with setting up costs etc etc over return I suppose.....

Any Canadians got a good quality picture of a C1 SMG

The SMG C1 had a parkerized finish, which of course was just entirely different from the finish of the Sterling. The bolt was a one piece thing, more like a Sten bolt. The bayonet was the C1...small ring and square mortise slot. The sling had a open end ring and a simple snap, like a dog leash. Simple two position rear sight like the early M1 Carbine. Yes, they were a nice handy little carbine.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Any Canadians got a good quality picture of a C1 SMG

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I have searched and searched. Can't find any good quality pictures of the Canadian C1 or the Spanish C2 SMG (Subfusil CETME C2).

Fear not troops, here you go.

By far the best set of pictures currently available on the internet of a C1 SMG

Canadian Military Police Virtual Museum

SUB-MACHINE GUN, 9MM,C1

Thanks for those photos Jim and others. It'd be a VERY easy gun to replicate/fabricate wouldn't it? Anyone out there in forumland fancy a go at one? The UK MoD trialled the use of the fabricated end/return spring cap because the cast/machined cap was an expensive part but there were some commercial licensing hurdles and according to David H again, the UK Government didn't want to get their bottoms kicked again. The Govt did 'pirate' the ret sprg caps at Enfield in the mid 60's but ceased after the litlgation.

I have to say and I'm sure Tankie will agree, that the C1 finger guards were FAR easier to repair than ours ever were

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

I noticed that these clips were also used on the Vickers Berthier sling so it's possible that this sling maybe off something like else like a bag or load carry device.

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That sounds possible. How long is it?


Great pictures, Lee and Jim. Thank you.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/c1smg1-1.jpg

It’s very interesting to see those close-ups of the C1 after reading Peter’s excellent description in the GoD book.

The bottom picture shows the barrel positioning stud (page 195/196, #17 Stud, barrel positioning). What exactly does it do?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It'd be a VERY easy gun to replicate/fabricate wouldn't it? Anyone out there in forumland fancy a go at one?

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It’s on my list, Peter. Problem is finding the parts. So far I’ve only been able to get my mits on a couple of magazines, endcap, butt and a few other parts. The trigger en bloc is beyond my ability to fabricate and I am not sure about the magazine well. I’d also like to get a good look at the front sight.

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Originally Posted by Vincent

That sounds possible. How long is it?


Great pictures, Lee and Jim. Thank you.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/c1smg1-1.jpg

It’s very interesting to see those close-ups of the C1 after reading Peter’s excellent description in the GoD book.

The bottom picture shows the barrel positioning stud (page 195/196, #17 Stud, barrel positioning). What exactly does it do?



It’s on my list, Peter. Problem is finding the parts. So far I’ve only been able to get my mits on a couple of magazines, endcap, butt and a few other parts. The trigger en bloc is beyond my ability to fabricate and I am not sure about the magazine well. I’d also like to get a good look at the front sight.

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I believe the term is superfluous

Ah, that stud positioning barrel........ Because the C1 disn't have the same nose cap as the L2 gun, it didn't incorporate the one-way fit facility for the barrel so you could put the barrel in upside down. But because it used a UK made barrel (a condition of the free licensing agreement/parts don't forget) it could mean that the extractor slot was 180 degrees out! So the positioning stud was there to ensure that it would ensure that the flat on the barrel was facing downwards and clear the stud.

We had a box of trials parts at work. Mention it to me if you start your project.

It was this licensing agreement that ensured that you very rarely see one out of captivity. Strange, but true. We (Warminster) asked for one on a Military to Military basis but even we had to go through hoops and hoops with Royal Ord and then BAe who were the license holders of the original this that and the other and when/if we got it, it was STILL on the understanding that it belonged to the Canadian DofD! How mad is that.........? What a palava. We even had one set aside and an SA80 to go over to Borden. I just didn't pursue it in the end............ The one we had for the trials went to the PRoom and guess what......... STILL - on paper - belongs to the Canadian DofD!

That's correct, the barrel was round at the back except for a flat spot. The front had a T shape with the holes for the Allen head screws. It never occurred to me to insert a barrel up side down...but so be it.

It wouldn't occur to me either Jim, but you have to cater for the crunchie or weapon training staff who has found himself to be the proud owner of a set of allen keys on his leatherman knife that he got for Christmas. Now he's just GOT to find something to do with them. So he sees a Sterling gun and some needy allen bolts so guess what he does............. And if he can put it back together the wrong way, guess what else he does............

Have a good rest of the day!

Well, that’s interesting. The barrel support will not be hard to make then. :)

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

cater for the crunchie or weapon training staff

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Or as was overheard once, "Oh look, a screw!"..."Well, that has to come out!"

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Vincent

The barrel support will not be hard to make then

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Also true, you could just collar each end of a plain barrel...for starters.

I would LOVE to have a C1 in the collection! I have never seen one in the flesh, so to speak!

The nearest thing to one of these over here (& the rest of the World, I believe) is a Japanese Replica. These were marketed as inert non firers.
But they also did a plug cap firing version from the same model. Which cycled & functioned. Just like the real steel version.

This has been reserected recently, using the same machinery & dies. For an Airsoft Electric variant. That uses 6mm Plastic BB's as projectiles.

I have an inert replica as a 'space filler'. Until the unlikely possibility of a real one comes along!...............:ugh:

There are some small inaccuracies on the Replica version. But hey, it's better than an empty space on the wall!....:cheers:

I have a Canadian sling for Mine. & am seeking a genuine Canadian Magazine. If anyone can help at all? :thup:

---------- Post added at 02:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Thanks for those photos Jim and others. It'd be a VERY easy gun to replicate/fabricate wouldn't it? Anyone out there in forumland fancy a go at one? The UK MoD trialled the use of the fabricated end/return spring cap because the cast/machined cap was an expensive part but there were some commercial licensing hurdles and according to David H again, the UK Government didn't want to get their bottoms kicked again. The Govt did 'pirate' the ret sprg caps at Enfield in the mid 60's but ceased after the litlgation.

I have to say and I'm sure Tankie will agree, that the C1 finger guards were FAR easier to repair than ours ever were

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Yes Pete, they are spot wended to the receiver on the C1. On the British Sterling, ALL receiver 'attached' body parts were induction brazed to the main tube/body housing. If you tried to re-attach a finger guard or a cracked magazine housing for example. When you heated that area up with a flame. Other 'bit's just fell off! It was an absolute NIGHTMARE to do anything re-attaching wise to the main receiver tube!.....Im SURE you have been there!........;)

I like the look of the C1, it's got a look that's different to a L2 but still looks like a L2.... if you see what I mean. Looks like the gun that could have been between the Lanchester and the Sterling.

In my very humble it's an ordinary Sterling sling that's been 'enhanced' with an extra clip and spurious WWII markings. I recall some appearing on eBay 2-3 years ago - IIRC they were being sold as Bren slings.

I don't think that the brass 'dog-lead' hooks on that sling would last 10 minutes while in use as a Bren sling. I have to say that when we first got the SA80/L85 rifle I shunned the 'new' sling and used a Sterling sling as a better-for-me option. But realised a year or so later that the proper L85 sling was good and versatile too

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

proper L85 sling

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That one was set up like a biathlon sling?

That's it BAR. Probably one of the parts (the other was the SUSAT sight) that didn't get a pasting from the press and squaddies alike. Most people keep one in their pouch as a useful bit of kit - like a cheap toggle rope.

We had them for the C9. They were a classic lesson in EDI when taught correctly. Most had no idea how to employ them.

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

In my very humble it's an ordinary Sterling sling that's been 'enhanced' with an extra clip and spurious WWII markings. I recall some appearing on eBay 2-3 years ago - IIRC they were being sold as Bren slings.

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It's not had a clip added as far as I can see, I've seen how it's been done with others and this doesn't show any signs of that. The other thing I can say is that it's never been on ebay as lets say it came direct from source.

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

It's not had a clip added as far as I can see, I've seen how it's been done with others and this doesn't show any signs of that. The other thing I can say is that it's never been on ebay as lets say it came direct from source.

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Curious. In my wanderings on the highways and byways of pre-1945 British webbing equipment I've never seen anything with that type of clip neither have I ever seen an olive green weapon sling.

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

Curious. In my wanderings on the highways and byways of pre-1945 British webbing equipment I've never seen anything with that type of clip neither have I ever seen an olive green weapon sling.

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I'm of the opinion now that it may just be some sort of carry strap from a satchel or similar and perhaps the clips were an off the shelf pattern later used the SMG sling. I've seen it lots of times before where very similar items are used for so many varied jobs.

Yep, BP, you have got it in one and just reminded me............... It's latest incarnation was as the the sling from the softee bag for the old IIW night vision...., you know, the old Rank Pullin one from the L42 and L1A1. I have just had a look at mine and it has exactlt the same one stuffed inside the bag jammed inside the top/lid of the carrying case. No date or maker but identical...............

Probably got a zillion other uses but NOT for carrying a Bren!

While we are on recycling. I use an L2 SMG sling as the shoulder strap for my shotgun cartridge bag. The bag itself is a webbing geiger counter case. Four twenty five cartridge boxes fit perfectly.

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Originally Posted by tankhunter

I would LOVE to have a C1 in the collection! I have never seen one in the flesh, so to speak!

The nearest thing to one of these over here (& the rest of the World, I believe) is a Japanese Replica. )

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There are some floating around Canada, albeit not many. Some were sold in their regular selective fire form to DCRA members back in the day. As well, at some point Canada sold or gave a bunch to the Congo. About 10 of these were later re-imported to Canada thru the UK. They were imported as converted auto (semi automatic).

A full auto one was sold a year or two ago at auction here in Canada and only went for around $1400 IIRC. That would reflect the scarcity of qualified buyers over the collectors value however. As a full auto, only grandfathered full auto owners could purchase it. That was cheap, when you consider that a more common Sterling will sell here for around 2K or more.

I have a deactivated C1 in my collection. In my short 30 years of collecting it was the only one I had the opportunity to buy and I am glad I did.

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Originally Posted by stencollector

As well, at some point Canada sold or gave a bunch to the Congo.

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I'd be curious as to where that info came from?

I'm with BAR here...... Can you quantify/qualify that Congo connection SC? I ask because Sterling were ruthless about the commercial sales of their guns and as such even Indian ones are as rare as rocking horsh sh....., er, manure. Lithgow were also banned from sales of their F1/Sterling magazines although they DID sell some to Malaysia(?) with Sterlings approval PLUS their rightful share of the royalties plus costs. David Howroyd told me that Canada were the only people who stuck rigidly to their word.

We had a RE (Royal Engineers) Officer, Capt. Tubby Txxxxxx (he wasn't tubby at all..... He was 6' 6" tall and as skinny as a rake!) in the Congo 'attached' to the Mines Advisory and Clearance group who were de-mining the place. He sent us pages and pages of stuff plus photos that we could have including L-B Mk2 Sten guns (plenty.....) but never saw a C1 among it or in a picture. We had some things and it's fair to say that getting a couple of LB Stens plus odds and sods from the Congo via the High Commission/Military attache was EASIER than getting a single live C1 from Canada. Less paperwork too. And when I left, we STILL didn't have one!

I personally cannot. But here is a post from someone over on gunnutz who seems to have some info:

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That said, I have an ex-OPP 8L Series C1A1 that goes back a few years. It is so mint that it doesn't even have any scratches on the butt-plate.

A bit of trivia - the company that bought the ex-OPP C1A1s was SIDEM UK. They are the same surplus firearms dealer that sourced, modified, and sold to other Commonwealth countries the Portuguese and Sudanese-surplus original AR-10 rifles from 1959-1960.

Not to mention the 3 x converted-auto C1 SMGs (Sterlings) that are in private hands in Canada. I know, because I have a copy of the original invoice coming from the Congo (based on an earllier Canadian military assistance sale) that has my gun's serial number listed with 3 other Canadian xSxxxx numbers on the import list. There are a grand total of 3 x CA Canadian manufactured C1 SMGs in private hands in Canada.

Just a bit of info on a select group of Canadian prohibs for anyone who is interested.

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There is also this from the store owner who imported the SMG C1s:

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We did get a hold of some C-1 SMG's that had been left behind by peace keeping forces in Africa. There was a considerable flap when I marketed them because they were assumed to have been stolen here in Canada but the matter got sorted out in the end.

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So it looks like I was wrong on the quantity though...it may be just 3 CAs. I did a search for SMG C1s on one of those online Canadian registries, and I think I came up with between 10 and 20 in total .Only thing is the registry is a bit of a mess, and some were registered as Sterlings, while some were registered as C1s. Since the online database only listed partial information it was hard to decipher it fully.

The production quantity of the C1 SMG, based on the serial numbers, is thought to be approx 30,000. I did run the stock number back in the late 90s and at that time there remained 24,000 in the depots. The shortage of approx 6,000 is a little high to expain away by reasoning that some were lost or damaged.

I may have a source for more information. But it will be a while before I run into him again, so hopefully I'll remember to ask.

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Originally Posted by stencollector

I have a deactivated C1 in my collection. In my short 30 years of collecting it was the only one I had the opportunity to buy and I am glad I did.

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Could you post some detailed pictures of the sights and magazine well? :bow: Please :bow: Please :bow:

This is what I have found after two decades of searching.

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Originally Posted by stencollector

But here is a post from someone over on gunnutz who seems to have some info:

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Don't get me wrong, I don't want to start a fight about this...

I know we keep hearing about this from time to time and it's hard to sort out. When it comes to a businessman saying this gun came from here or there...I have little faith in that. Guns could have been lost in battle in Africa, stolen during Somalia for instance...or another mission. Then trickled through someone's purchase system. (There were a few C7s lost during the Bosnian campaign, so they're out there) But I spent 35 years dealing with all this while in. I was assured our weapons weren't going anywhere but the smelters or on trophy plaques for display. There was a rumor that the FNs would be sold or given to a banana republic, and this was just a rumor started by those who wished they were in a banana republic to get one. I know the SMGs were out of magazines back in '95 when we asked for some for our foreign weapons display in Gagetown in the SA wing. The FNs were reduced to 0 strength by the JTF shooters in Afghanistan early on... Yes, the DCRA had some from way back. Love to see some of those...where they are now...but I think that's the most of what got out of CAL...

I think that you are right there BAR. I work on the principle that if we, the UK MoD Small Arms School faced soooooo many difficulties getting one from the originator, then........... Best bet seems to be make a simply fabricated repro like Vince is doing.

Point to notice from Vince's photos above, that Canada/L-B considered the double return spring to be a frill if not a complete fraud. There was a lot of discussion about it's use. After all, the first/inner spring was already half compressed and loaded down when you inserted the cocking handle! So effectively, it was redundant - sort of.......! Nope..... In my opinion, the remaining possible loading of the inner spring MIGHT serve some useful purpose but I haven't discovered what it is yet. Possibly all it does is prevent the cocking handle from rattling. But that's all!

Our bolt was a simple machine job, our mag followers were stamped, our trigger was a basic...many shortcuts...they worked ok though.

I'm pretty sure that had the SMGs in question been lost or stolen, and then later retrieved and re-imported to Canada, they would have been re-claimed by the Canadian Government. Certainly the USA does this, even with material they left behind such as during their hasty withdrawal from Vietnam back in the day.

As I said, I'll query further on this and see what comes up.

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Originally Posted by stencollector

they would have been re-claimed by the Canadian Government

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You're probably right there.

Does the Mk5 charging handle rattle, Peter?

It does indeed! But I wouldn't call it a 'rattle' as such, just not as tight as the A3/MK4

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

We had them for the C9. They were a classic lesson in EDI when taught correctly. Most had no idea how to employ them.

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Some still don't...

Is the inside of the Mk5 bolt cut away so the end of the return spring presses on the charging handle? Or are all the lightning cuts forward of the charging handle hole? I read in the book that Gorge Patchett wanted the lightning cuts off center to the right. So I am guessing the cuts are forward of where the return spring seats and that area was not cut to let the spring go deeper into the bolt?