Erratic grouping

Dear all, I have a No 4 Mk1 on which I've fitted a good quality modern x4 scope.

I'm getting frustrated with the grouping. For example, I've just fired 10 rounds at 100 yards. The first 5, 4 of the shots were in an inch group slap bang where I wanted them to go with one flyer about 3 to 4 inches off to the left. The second group, 3 shots bang on with 2 about 3 or 4 inches off to the right !!!

Does anyone have any idea what might be the cause or is this "a normal grouping".
Am I expecting too much ??

The rifling looks ok along its length although doing the bullet test in the muzzle does indicate a bit of wear.

I'm using home loads and tried various bullet weights with N140 but all pretty much the same results.

Any suggestions ?

Cheers.

Get yourself 10 UK made rounds of .303" Mk7. Fire two or three warmers in the bank and then let a well known reliable shooter a group of 5 or 6 off a table (or fire trench) at 25 yards with his fore-arm rested on a sandbag. Then come back and tell us what you got and we'll tell you what the problem is.

There's so many variables at this point we can't help but guess.

If you cannot get surplus Mk VII ammuntion use commercial ammunition off a rest and do as Mr Laidler suggests. Then get a known good shot to do the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert303

If you cannot get surplus Mk VII ammuntion use commercial ammunition off a rest and do as Mr Laidler suggests. Then get a known good shot to do the same.

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The problem with most commercial ammunition these days is that it isn't really Mk.VII because, although the bullets are of the correct weight, they have boat-tails and Lee-Enfields prefer flat-base.

Like testing your cars performance. If it was made to run on 4 star, don't test it on un-leaded!

Whilst I agree with Beerhunter and Mr Laidler re Mark VII ammunition in a SMLE or No4. I have to point out one problem with their argument. It is VERY difficult to get Mark VII ammunition. Most of us have no option but to use commercial or homeloaded ammunition. As we all know there is no easy source of supply of flat based bullets that are legally available to target shooters in the U.K.

The is a thread somewhere talking about Barnaul making 174 FB projies and another that Taipan (Australia) was making a comeback but as yet with the latter there has been nought in the wind, Highland have pulled the plug on 303 pills now so 174gn Seirra are it unless your filthy rich and can afford to throw Woodleighs down the range.
I have used 150gn Hornady FBSP with good results to 400m but they taper off a fair bit at 600m

I have used a lot of Remingtons 174 gr MC. This is a full jacketed bullet that appears to be flat based on the picture on the box. I'd be glad to pull one and photograph it. Many of my rifles are bang on at 100 to 400+ yards with this load.

Ridolpho

I have 1600 of the Barnauls

:)

but there maybe no more, I bought the last in NZ I believe

:(

They shoot pretty well for 35centsNZ a pop.

---------- Post added at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 AM ----------

Are you shooting well then the last one goes awol? suggests temperature is having an effect.

Sadly getting mk7 is hard if not impossible, and very expensive if lucky.

regards

The Remington UMC as Ridolpho suggested, is the closest commercial equivalent to Mk.7z and very good. I think Cold Zero uses it too with great results. I had some Winchester "white box" made on contract in 1981 that was Mk.7z spec but you can't find it anymore. I wish Winchester would produce it again. I'm seeing a few problems in rifles sent here caused by the S&B and PPU Mk.8 spec stuff. Usually inconsistent primers but no fault of the rifle's. I understand guys who don't reload having to shoot what they can find. I just had a local fellow bring me a recently imported 1936 Ishapore Mk.III for service that's been through Indian rebuild but has sound woodwork and is matching. It passes the .074 no-go gauge and is in spec with the run gauges but the barrel swallowed the .310 erosion gauge in the throat/leade well past the 1/4" mark so he'll be needing some flat base projectiles for sure!

Ok thanks all for the replies.

Peter, I have done as instructed but with commercial ammo.

At 25 yards my shooting friends group was 1" low and 1" right of centre with no flyers.

I then shot a group of 5 with exactly the same result, no flyers.

I then shot a further 8 and again exactly same result, no flyers.

All groups were 1".

Dear jr57,
Now, I am no expert, but here is my 5p worth:
Poor ammo tends to give vertical errors. Bedding errors also typically string vertically, rather than horizontally, as the barrel heats up.
Approx 39-40 grains of Vit N140 plus any 174 grain projectile should give excellent results at 100yds and beyond.

The fact that your shots are horizontally off POA suggests something else is at work.
Maybe your scope/mount arrangement is wobbling horizontally?
I know nothing about the internals of scopes, but it is conceivable that, if the rig is solid, then the internals could also be loose.
Suggestion: Why not eliminate the scope/mount and see what the rifle/ammo combination does: i.e, If you shoot through iron sights at 100yds, do you get the same flyers?

Rob, you've totally lost me............ And presumably JR too by now! Surely he HAS eliminated the problem by using commercially made ammo as we can see from the groups detailed in thread 12! All he has to do now is to zero his rifle to suit. The 'accuracy' of a rifle is nothing to do with the tele sight.

Sorry, Peter, I missed his reply No.12 while I was musing over the causes of horizontal flyers... a Sauvignon Blanc moment...

Yup, if the rifle groups, only needs to zero it. If it still sends horizontal flyers intermittently I reckon either he is flinching or his scope/mount is wobbly.

JR57. Now that you have tried commercial ammunition. Do as suggested and take it out to 100m. If all OK there then you have problem with inconsistent handloads. I had this a few years ago when I could not get consistent neck tension. I solved the problem by cleaning all my dies and resetting them and by adding a crimp die. If at all possible beg, borrow, steal a chronograph as that is the only real way to test your homeloads. Not sure which part of Scotland you are i but if near Edinburgh hopefully you can make it to the Scottish Historic Rifle Championships on Sep 21st at Castelaw. (See Vintage Arms Scotland website for details)

Gents, thanks for your assistance.

Brian in thread 11 makes a good point about eroded leeds. The gauge he mentions was used to test or measure the wear at the leed but seemed to fall into dis-use for rifles during the 60's or so but remained in use for Brens until the end (the Vickers had its own.....) But some used to swear by this gauge over all others as with it, you would see the wear for gas to pass the projectile and cause the projectile to become unstable even before it really started its way up the bore. Even more unstable with the boat tailed Mk8 stuff.

The moral here is that everyone should keep a small stock of standard military Mk7 ammo just for test/calibration purposes. Like finding a No32 telescope. Get some now while you can still get it resonably cheap and available.

What diameter bullets are you using? Also, have you slugged the barrel to see what diameter bullets you NEED to use?
Jon

Peter at No 18. Thanks for the explanation of the .310 guage. As to the Mark VII ammo. Does anyone know of a source in the U.K.? If so please pm me!

It IS possible to get Mk.VII bullets for reloading in the UK but they are horrendously expensive because the guys essentially hand make them.

Frontier of South Africa make a 174 gn. CMJ flat-base. Due to its design, it has a huge bearing surface which is all good but it also resembles flying dustbin and so I do not expect it will be much good at the longer ranges. The UK importer is a guy near Armagh City.