I have a 1921 Lithgow and want to know about tightening or adjusting the inner band screw.Don't know a lot about these rifles,does the inner band affect accuracy as to how the screw is set? Any answers greatly appreciated.
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I have a 1921 Lithgow and want to know about tightening or adjusting the inner band screw.Don't know a lot about these rifles,does the inner band affect accuracy as to how the screw is set? Any answers greatly appreciated.
From my readings, you should tighten that screw just enough to put tension on the band, but not snugged all the way down. I recently put new wood on an old Lithgow, and found that bit of advice somewhere, but can't recall exactly where! In my case, using a NOS (or was it reproduction?) forend, the hole drilled for the screw was too deep, and I couldn't get any tension on the band at all. I ended up using 2 inner band springs to space the screw out enough to bring the band down.
My understanding is that between the inner band tension and the nose cap tension from the forend stud spring, the barrel is held such as to reduce movement to a minimum.
And I've found where I got the inner band advice: from this forum, from "Bruce In Oz" who said "...This band should have a screw and spring pulling it DOWNWARDS, but NOT holding it tight against the barrel channel..."
Hope this helps.
I asked that exact same question on a different forum and here are the answers that I received.
Jon
1)I normally tighten it, then back off by half a turn. I use that half turn whilst I zero the rifle, to see if there is an optimum position for the best group.
Because the spring is so small, the adjustment increments are tiny - 1/8 of a turn can have an effect (in a sensitive rifle). However, most rifles seem to work best with the screw nearly tight - "soft" hand tight.
2)The inner band in a correctly bedded No1 rifle does absolutely nothing. The full length fore end could cause accuracy problems with the light profile barrel if the bedding began to change due to climatic conditions. The inner band was designed to hold the barrel to the fore end and regulate it if the fore end warped. The inner band screw has a collar on it so that it locks to the band. The spring washer provides a little dampening of the barrel to the fore end if there is contact caused from a slightly warped/ badly fitted fore end.
Quite a lot of shooters believe it does act to adjust accuracy, and I can see how that would come about. Fact is, it is designed to be locked up and if the rifle failed the accuracy test then the bedding was adjusted to fix it.
I suppose it comes down to if it works for you, do it. Remember that every load variation you use will probably require a change of the screw tension to get the best out of it if fiddling with it makes any difference to your load
From assembly instruction, No1 MkIII in SAIS No1. "Inner band; Spring should have slight play when screw is tightened up (test by pressure with large screwdriver)"
This means the screw locks to the inner band at the depth of the collar on the screw. The spring is compressed onto the foreend, but should still have some compression left- pressure on the screw head with a large screw driver should move the assembly slightly.
Lock it up. If there are accuracy issues, then it isn't the fault of the inner band.
WRT answer 1), musketjon... once the screw makes contact it is a metal to metal lock. There is virtually zero movement between "soft" contact and locked up.
I wasn't tooooo sure about this so it's taken a bit of time to search out the old wartime EMER's/Armourers training notes. And what Son says is absolutely correct. '...The screw is locked up against the inner band by the fixed pre-set length of the collar which sandwiches the spring against the band inner (no it doesn't....., it's between the screw and the fore-end). The remaining tension in the spring allows for the necessary vibration.......... etc etc etc.
This seemingly unnecessary band, spring and screw are important for the harmonics of the barrel during firing. Presumably the spring loading will dampen any whip as opposed to rigidly hold the barrel down. Thanks Son
Somewhere in my books I have seen where you mark in pencil of course, 8 equidistant lines around the screw hole and try the tension shooting with the screw head slot in line with one of the marks or in between this will give you 16 positions theoretically to get the point where the most accurate position is.
This does not mean you apply the 6' gorilla poundage to it but go by increments, James Sweets book also denotes the approximate position of nodes in the SMLE Mk III barrel and a method of bedding it in conjunction with the nodes interesting reading.
Sweet and Pavey must have known something as they could certainly get the rounds into the right spot.
Peter, still looking for the source, but I found somewhere ages ago that the inner band and the barrel centering stud were added when the barrel was shortened to 25 inches and made to a lighter profile than the MLE barrel. The original idea was the bedding would maintain the accuracy of the rifle (action and knox bedded, an inch either side of the inner band bedded and then minimum of four inches up to the muzzle bedded into the foreend with between 4 and 7 lbs up thrust on the barrel. ) and the inner band and barrel centering stud would do nothing. If the bedding failed by way of warping of the foreend, the barrel centering stud would maintain some upward pressure on the barrel while the inner band holds against it, stopping the barrel from lifting. These things were to hold the barrel in a way akin to the foreend bedding so accuracy wasn't totally lost with the slightest warping of the foreend.
If they did as they were designed to do, could you imagine how much time the unit armourers would have saved, not re bedding rifles that had lost their accuracy?
The barrel centering stud came a little later but not by much it was "introduced" with the Mk1* but i believe it was introduced into production a bit earlier, my 1904 Mk1 SMLE is without the stud & spring.
Yes, 5ThBatt: LoC 13509, Sep, 1905, if I'm reading it right, adds the stud and spring to what is still the SMLE Mk I. The intro of Mark I* is in '06 with approval dates from March through May.
Ridolpho
I have a date in the Lee Enfield by Major E.G.B Reynolds - The Short Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mk I was accepted on the 23rd December 1902 (Page 84) as a weapon for both infantry and cavalry and the general particulars are as follows yada yada then on page 87;Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho
"Inner Band - An inner band which encircled the barrel at the center with a clearance of .002 in, was fitted inside the stock fore end. It was held in position by a screw, spiral spring and a washer so that it was supported without being held rigidly. This allowed any possible expansion of the barrel."
Took a while to two finger type but there you go just info to share as the story goes on with the weapons we admire.:thup:
Cinders, the last couple of posts & the LoC mentioned are to do with the centering stud & spring that are at the nosecap end of the forend & not about the inner band.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
So I guess the bottom line is to snug it up, not with a 6 foot cheater-bar, but don't limp-wrist it, correct??
Jon
Well at least it is some info people may not know - :madsmile:
I do not own a Mk1 SMLE, but I vaguely recall that the Inner Band was in a different location along the barrel on the earlier models.
I guess there was some incremental fine tuning as the ammunition developed in parallel with the rifle.
There's the proof in the pudding... The Mk1 family of rifles had the inner band directly inside the outer band. This caused problems with the front handguard being very thin at that point and broke very easily. The fix was to move the inner band 1" rearward for the MkIII in 1907. Here's a pic of the two foreends to demonstrate. To the best of my understanding and research, it had nothing to do with harmonics or ammunition, just fixing the weakness inherent to the original design. Happy to see any docs you might have, Bruce. I have stood corrected a few times by your resources :beerchug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
Attachment 56382
Just to add for collectors and restorers... The inner band is actually tapered the same as the barrel. (slip one on a barrel, mark where it goes to and turn it around and mark it again. There will be 1/2 an inch or so between) An inner band for a Mk1 isn't marked as such, but an inner band for a MkIII has "III" on the surface it locks on. It is also marginally bigger than the MkI for fit on the barrel. If you were restoring a MkI you can use a MkIII inner band. If it has too much clearance for you, just turn it around so it isn't as loose (but will still clear)
Not only is the inner band on Mklll and lll* rifles tapered, the hole is not actually round.
There are two little "flat" section in the upper half. These are aligned at 60 degrees to the horizontal. Good filing exercise for the apprentices!
I guess that this provided some sort of guided, centralising bearing, of a similar nature to the little extra window cut above the muzzle exit on the nose-cap.
On the road again: When I get home tomorrow I will see if I can kick the scanner into life and post the actual drawing.
Must also have a closer look at the small box of inner bands again!
Bruce in OZ: I had noticed that in my spares and you'll often see the wear marks on the barrel from where the barrel rests on these flats. I have one MkIII (1916) made by Enfield from a former MkI that shows wear marks about one inch apart due to the relocation of the inner band in the new model. The little flats certainly seem a good way to positively relocate the barrel after each shot and I've extrapolated this to the front bearing on a couple of No. 4's that were not grouping well. While they had good up-pressure, the barrel channel was of a larger radius than the barrel and didn't positively relocate it after each shot. I scraped a smaller radius groove at the bottom of the channel (inverted analogue of these inner bands) and now the barrel is very positively located. In one case the grouping clearly improved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
Ridolpho
The two little internal ribs go to support the notion that it is a vibration damper.and a physical means of re-centralising the barrel after it has moved. Although 'moved' is a bit of a misnomer I suppose. Should that read '...finished vibrating'. I have to confess that I didn't realise that the inner band was internally tapered. We only got them assembled to new barrels and the last new Ordnance issue barrels I ever saw were in the 60's.
There were several simple student experiments that could be used to illustrate the vibration characteristics of rifle barrels, especially light ones like the No1. The first one was the fact that you could use one as a post horn (a musical instrument......)
Interesting thread
I'd heard about that, but only accomplished it myself with a .50 barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The first time i ever saw a full wood Lee-Enfield (a No4) was at the home of a Bandsman from the Band of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst & he stuck a mouthpiece in the muzzle & played a tune.
Me & my sister circa 1972 at Sandhurst.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...andhurst-1.jpg
And that's exactly what I heard from some of the old soldiers in 1974 when I was just a young troop...a .50 barrel you can do as is...just wipe off the oil first. Bet you'd like to go back and let one bark from that mortar now...just one.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thBatt
& some of the Cannons that were around the place, unfortunately their Historic significance was lost on a me as a young boy who was only real interested in anything military was the rifles, would love to just be able to go back & just touch them again without just "playing".Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oCannons-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rtarRMAS-1.jpg
I remember seeing a Gatling in the Henry Ford museum in Michigan when I was just young. Beautiful shape and wooden dowels in the barrels for de-wat. That was all...Love to go back and wring that one out...
A friend, Mike Yeck brought his Gatling guns out to Greenfield Village every year for muzzleloaders festival. They'd set up a picket fence and cut it in half, it was quite a sight.
Nothing like that now 5th Batt. No public access and VERY secure......... But still as impressive