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Hi Guys:
I'm interested in purchasing my 1st M1 Garand, I'm really focused on a WWII that has not been reworked. Not so interested in a Korean era piece yet since this will be my first. Looking at a 1944 Springfield that has not been messed with asking price around 2K for it. (Serial number is in the low 3M range ) Typical small dings in the stock, OP Rod is uncut, NFR Cartouche looks good.
Any special things I need to ask about from the sell other than will he take less?
Thanks, David
Is it guaranteed "original" or has it been restored? Big difference. Any repro parts like a restamped stock cartouche? Is it refinished? Is there a rebuild notation on the receiver leg?
Need pictures. What's on the barrel? What markings on the trigger assembly, and the I think follower arm. How are you making the delineation that it "has not been messed with"?
I'll say, for around me, 2,000 is very high. I got mine at 800 about a year ago. All correct parts for when the receiver was made, in 1944 a Springfield as well, but I can tell someone put it together although they did a good job. Might have been a CMP done one but it had no papers.
David, are you able to post photographs? Our site experts are very good and will be able to confirm any claims made by the seller.
For $2000 its a restored rifle not original. Either that or the seller doesnt know what he has .
Before laying down that kind of cash you need to do your homework or you could end up with a $700 mixmaster
Thanks guys, I'm pulling down some pics for you to look at.
I have purchased several nice German pistols from this dealer and he is a high volume seller and knows his weapons. This dealer usually sells 95% or higher firearms. The only comment he made on this one is that it's not pristine but unmessed with 100% original.
I can ask for additional pictures if these are not adequate. Thanks! -David
https://plus.google.com/photos/11044...CMfdvN2Kq5mPfw
What are internals ? is the gas pad chromed or parked?
Does it have provenance? If not do you have enough experience to tell a restored/correct rifle from a Original rifle? If not you need to find someone who can as $2000 is to much for a restored 1944 Garand
It can be very ,very difficult to impossible in person to tell if its a restored or a original rifle unless something really stands out as a red flag . So you can imagine how hard it is from pictures
I'm being told by the seller:
The Garand was sold through the DCM some time ago. Being told that it was probably sitting in a national guard armory. If you compared it to the builds in Scott Duffs book it would have all ten correct drawing numbers. Seller can send internal pics if needed.
Guys, If we need internal pics please be specific as to what we need to see and I will request them.
I am in no way trying to be rude but are you willing to pay extra $$$ just for a story ?
In my opinion without provenance its not worth $2000.
Good luck on your decision
Orlando, no you are not being rude. I trust the dealer, I've done 5 transactions with him, all positive. He's willing to provide any requested pictures that might be needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
I just need a list of what's needed regarding additional pictures, and specific questions if there are any.
You arent getting it, go back and read post #7 . With pics all you can be told is if the rifle has the correct parts, not original parts.
There is a huge difference between "correct" parts/ garand and "original" parts/garand.
I am not saying your"dealer" is trying to cheat you. He may not be a expert on Garands. If he was he wouldnt be telling you the rifle is original without a papertrail.
We could look at the rifle and tell you it "may or could" be orignal but again, without proof, provenace or paper trail its nothing more than a educated guess. IMO $2000 is to much for a educated guess
You seem to have your mind made up already so good luck
Without documentation even a CMP (or DCM) rifle is really just a rebuild. It is as these others are saying "a story". It cannot be verified and unless you are very good or lucky you will not be able to tell the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by lkgmadmax
David, there is an old saying in the gun collecting world; "buy the gun, not the story". Meaning, never trust what the seller tells you about a collector type weapon. Always do your homework as Orlando said and you will decrease the chances of you getting burned in a purchase. Unfortunately you can still do all the due diligence humanly possible and still get burned. You can take what Orlando says as gospel because he is one of out most knowledgeable authorities on the M1 rifle here at Milsurps.com.
As for me, I have my doubts on the rifle in that I believe the milled trigger guard is too early for the serial number. That said, there is another saying we collectors use; "never say never and never say always". Meaning anything is possible. Even if the trigger guard is too early nothing says it may not have been on hand to be used at the time of build.
Good luck with your purchase and please keep us posted. :thup:
Thank you guys! I've ordered some books on the M1 Garand so that will be a bit better armed before making that purchase decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger
Thanks to all for for the input, much appreciated. -David
I am far from being the most knowledgeable but I have been around the block.
To the OP, you dont undertsand. There is no book that is going to help you.
Are you looking for a Original Garand or a Correct Garand, do you undertsand the difference between the two?
Orlando I think the best I can hope for and can afford at this time will be an era "correct" M1, consisting of the proper components from the serial number range time frame of the receiver and barrel, would that make sense to you? Can anyone prove that have a 100% from the factory original, I think not but then again I haven't been around the block but I'm on my way :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
OK , now we are getting somewhere. You stated before that the rifle was unmessed with which would mean all original parts as it left the manufacture. Now you are looking for a all correct Garand.
The are Original rifles out there but you will pay heavily for them.
IMO $2200 is high for a correct 1944 Garand , you can do better if you look around. $2200 is a steal for a original
If you are set on the one you are looking at you need pics of receiver internals, pic of trigger group and internal markings, pic of oprod markings,
Pic or gas screw, Is gas port pad chromed or parkerized?
The stock concerns me as I belive it should be a SA /GAW but I may be wrong . That may have been the cut off with overlap
I know Bill pointed out that it had a milled trigger housing, this would not be proper for the serial number range from some searches on the web it would have belonged to an earlier production rifle. Now I have read that the cartouche was used on later in the war period after George Woody passed away, maybe the stocks were stamped in advance of his death and they needed to be used up. The answers to the other questions you have asked I'm not sure about (the seller was willing to tear it down and provide photos) and to be honest if the trigger assembly isn't correct for a 1944 I probably will not pursue this rifle further. Thanks for all of the assistance! -DavidQuote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
Stocks would not be stamped in advance as they are acceptance stamps. The rifle must pass
final acceptance before it is stamped. It is possible the new stamp was not yet available so the
old one was used.
Tom
Just got a mixmaster $710 a SA 200,0XX and it been rework about 2 time that can tell. Not a $2000 its been used. I was in the Army for 2 year and that what i had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
Welcome to the forum...maybe you could show us a few pics of this one? Then we can help you figure out what you got...
I am by any means an expert and certainly not a collector though between my son and I we have 3. In Northern Ohio an average WW2 era rifle will go between $800 to $1200 with the higher price becoming the norm since the CMP North store is almost bare.
During WW2 and even Korea after a battle any loose weapons would have been collected and stacked (usually not neatly or gently) and a couple of souls who job it was to check them out would go through that stack of rifles. If it was damaged any good parts would be removed and or replaced with others to make a serviceable weapon which would be reissued or shipped back to the states to an arsenal where once again they would have been gone through thoroughly and repacked in grease for storage. From there it may have remained in storage or shipped to service agencies ( The Guard, reserve units, VFW, amvets, DCM) or sent out in Lend Lease. If and when returned most probably sent on to the CMP and gone through again. The chances of getting one unmessed with is as remote as me swimming to Hawaii. I have a late 5 mil Springfield that is a mix master and it may never have been issued.