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Have a Question, a SMLE No 1 Mk 1 that is all original as a Mk 1 , it doesn't have any of the * ( star ) improvements of later rifles, research shows that Mk1's were dated 1902 , with improved * , ** , *** rifles coming along after this time ie 1906, 1908 an 1914, as per photo my BSA Mk 1 shows a date of 1910 ???? - why ? , am I missing something under my nose , I have seen one other in NZ with same markings and that owner believes there are more about - thanks :)
I remember reading somewhere in the past that New Zealand has a lot of these 1910 dated Mk.1's floating around. I think the reason was that they still had not upgraded their ammo from the old pattern and had ordered a new batch from BSA who just cranked out another batch of Mk.1's for them. The NZ rack number is strange as in that the lower number (05) usually is taken to mean the year it was taken into service there, which would imply 1905, maybe that was when they were ordered, which would then make more sense. NZ went to war in WW1 with MK.1 rifles and only upgraded to Mk.III's and Mk.III*'s in theatre.
According to the Sullivans book The New Zealand Mounted rifles received No. 1 Mk 1's in between 1910-1913, the infantry had MLE's until Gallipoli. The examples I have seen are dated 1904, and 1910 though there may be other dates. The 05 on the wrist is probably a batch number. Perhaps a sticky tread on NZ wrist markings would add more to the subject. NZ most likely bought outdated rifles because they were cheap! (they bought 50K odd second hand MLE's in 1914) and yes the CAC were making Mk6 .303 until at least 1917. Sht LE's sighted to Mk6 have a more pronounced hump on the sight bed and many No1 Mk1's were re-sighted post 1910 when Mk7 .303 was introduced, though initially Mk7 was reserved for the Machine Gun Corp. Mk6 .303 was still widely used in the early years of WW1. I have never seen any NZ marked No1 Mk1's with the '*' upgrades.
Thanks guys - I think you are on the right track - the Govt was tight 100 yrs ago ( still much the same today with defence spending ) , BSA fulfilled any order from NZ with what they had on hand at the right ( cheap ! ) price.:dancingbanana:
NZ brought replacement barreled actions to refurb existing stocks of rifles, this has been noted for both NZ carbines & Long Lees, the NZ carbines the rack number & year of acceptance was transfered from the old action to the new action & as the Long Lees had these markings on the butt plate tang the receivers remained un-marked other than a N^Z stamp.
Now there is no reason not to suspect we did the same with the Mk1 SMLE & yours is likely a replacement that has received a earlier rifles rack number & acceptance date.
Here is my 1904 NZ marked Mk1 SMLE, note the rack number is 300 higher than yours but carries the same 05 acceptance date but the rifle dates from 6 years earlier.
BTW the Mk1 SMLE is not called a No1 Mk1, it never received the No1 designation.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Mk1SMLE2-1.jpg
When did the Sht LE 1 enter NZ service? My understanding is outlined in the earlier post, 1910-1913. A Sht LE 1 wouldn't have had received the rack number of a MLE or Carbine which the NZMR would have had in 1910 but had accepted into service in 1905? Does anyone have any more NZ rack numbers with are 'younger' than the year of the rifle. I have two Sht LE III's but the rack numbers correspond with the years of the rifles (1908 -09 and 1912- 12) Both of which are older than the supposed entry of the Sht LE III into NZ service.
Roy, have a look here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy
http://www.armsregister.com/arms_register/rifles.html
Thanks, that has corrected me on many things, Ill have to check my references which may be incorrect, though I suspect I am! So all Sht LE's prior to WW1 in NZ were used by the MR's Artillery and Engineers and the infantry made do with MLE's until WW1.
Could these rifles have been a batch of trails rifles , with slight improvements ? ie front sight , there are quite a number floating around NZ , three in my town alone, all with either 1904 0r 1910 dates
I've seen 1918 dated Mk III* rifles with NZ markings on them, which indicates to me they were ordering brand-new rifles by the time the war ended rather than just going for whatever was on clearance from the gun trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by owengun
My 1904 Enfield Mk 1 also has 05 under the rack number
The story here is NZ troops waiting to return home after the war, handed in their battle worn rifles & were issued new rifles, hence the rarity of earlier NZ marked MkIII SMLEs, the Mk1s remained in NZ & were apparently used for training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield
By then I'd assume there would have been nothing lying around to by cheap....Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield
That makes sense and sounds like something the NZ Government would do (especially because it meant they didn't have to pay extra to ship all the new rifles back home!)Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thBatt
Around 1912 the mounted rifles were rearmed with MkIII's and their MkI's were issued to senior cadet forces.
After the first echelon of the 1st NZ Div left NZ in 1915 (carrying MLE's) there was such a shortage of SMLE's in NZ that NZ reinforcements left the country unarmed and the troops were armed from British stores upon arrival in England perhaps this occurred in 1917 -18 as a high proportion of SMLE's here are from those dates. Both of my NZ marked 1917-18 actions have 1920 barrels on them and had windage sights. Possibly from a mass post ww1 refurbishment of ww1 worn rifles here . My 1908 NZ SMLE was rebarreled with a 1941 lithgow barrel, so at least some of the early pre ww1 NZ SMLE's soldiered on to their next war and I have seen a picture from Crete of a Kiwi section with sunlight reflecting off the volley sight plates of their rifles.
here are my NZ marked SMLEs
1904 EFD Mk1
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SMLEmain-1.jpg
1916 EFD MkIII, Mk1 body, 1918 dated barrel.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...morefun7-1.jpg
1918 BSA MkIII* 1939 dated Lithgow replacement receiver.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../11/fun1-1.jpg
1918 BSA MkIII*
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/18BSA1-1.jpg
1918 EFD MkIII* 1925 dated barrel
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/181EFD-1.jpg
1918 LSA MkIII* 1939 dated barrel
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...starMain-1.jpg
1918 SSA MkIII*
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8SSAmain-1.jpg
1918 NRF MkIII*
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../NRFmain-1.jpg
If you want to see more of these rifles, just click on the pics.
Was the photo you saw of a SMLE or was it a P14 as there were P14's issued to our Engineers up until around 1943. Don't have a clear enough photo to post at this stage, but the NZ Army Museum Newsletter (march/April 2014) shows some NZ troops in Crete/Greece with P14's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy
I honestly can't remember. But thats interesting since engineers were amongst the first to receive SMLE's pre WW1
Great pics and thanks for sharing! Interesting to note they've all got the butt discs too, despite that supposedly being phased out about 1915/1916.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thBatt
The Brits and the Aussies phased them out. The Kiwis are a law unto themselves coming home with new rifles and fitted discs to them. Smart coolies cheap new rifles.
The Aussies came home with worn rifles and were sent worn out rifles to replace the new ones sent to England early in the war. Don't say it 5th I know.
Butt discs....... In NZ, we were fitting butt marking discs to our newly issued Lithgow made L2A1 rifles, issued from the big Ordnance Depot at Ngaruawahia to the Northern based Infantry units in 1968. Why, I never knew - but I just did what was needed. Strangely enough, I asked for one from the NZ Army in 2000 in return for a favour. And it turned up from Papakura, complete with a butt marking disc!
The Mounted rifles were marking butt discs into the 20's I have a butt on a rifle marked 430 WN 12/43 and the Navy were and Airforce were marking butt disks with ships names and airfields for years .