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Is this box a fake? Does the finish look original on the pistol? I read that there are many fakes. The stamp looks to have been applied after the finish.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../24gn7lz-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/8x1sn4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../1zml001-1.jpg
Under the wrap I found this. NRA 1962. The s/n matches the pistol.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../20u95z5-1.jpg
It looks honest. The slide has been heavily refinished which is typical. It's hard to believe but they actually put the parts in a huge sand tumbler to clean them. Simply awful! They were shipped direct from several U.S. Arsenals in the 1950's and 1960's in matching kraft boxes as purchased through NRA and DCM.
I have one bought 1965 through the NRA too. Looks very similar, but I believe as said the finish is off. It looks too light. It could be correct though, it is very hard to tell in pictures. Here are some photos of my Colt and RR 1911. WWII 1911A1 - Imgur
I think the frame is original finish because the crossed cannons look as if they cut the finish when stamped. It might be the picture but it sure looks bright in spots to me. The slide is obviously heavily reParkerized as I mentioned above. They were disassembled, inspected, refinished if necessary and put back together with no intention of matching up original parts. It is what it is and looks to be just as shipped to the original buyer. I had one almost exactly like it as shipped to a buyer in Jacksonville, FL from San Antonio Arsenal in the 60's. It was a 1944 Colt production pistol.
The finish on the pistol may be all original; photos need to be well lit with white light, & in focus. Also, we need to see the entire box, including the inside. Seeing the SN might help; the only valid reason to obscure it is if you believe that the gun is stolen. Only the inspectors initials & the DAS should have burnishing (bright metal showing); you may need a 10x loupe to see.
Neal
I'll stick to my guns, (pardon the pun), that the slide has been reParkerized. Forget the actual phosphate coating. The damage to the metal from being tumbled with sand is pretty blatant. Notice the difference in the grain structure on the close up photo as compared to the frame not to mention the battered sharp edges, dings and dents from tumbling with other parts. I saw the big tumbler at the 82nd Division workshops at Fort Bragg in the early 1980's and being a gun guy then as I am now, I was appalled but that's how it was. Just my 2 cents.
So why did they tumble the slides?
The whole gun looks like original finish to me. Never heard of tumbling slides.
The Remington Rand pistols that were new in the original shipping boxes as sold through the NRA/DCM were all late pistols in the 2.44 million range. The phosphate finish was a much lighter color than previous Remington Rands, and typically the slides were a shade darker than the receiver and the small parts quite a bit darker.
Military 1911 and 1911A1 pistols were refinished by being sandblasted. Tumbling would have resulted in a bunch of beat up and damaged slides with the finish still on them.
The finish on the pistol is most likely all original.
Mr. Peppers can help with the box with good photos. The boxes are tough for me to know for sure.
Johnny, I have seen 3 or 4 Remington Rands with box and some with both box and papers there were in other serial ranges, like 1.5 million and 2.2 million. I did not examine every detail as they were for sale and I was not buying. Have you seen any in this range? Fake papers and boxes, especially boxes, are becoming common.
One other related question, do you have any knowledge on how many of the DCM/NRA shipped M1911s and A1s that were new Remington Rands(most I have seen apparently were), other makers and rebuilt/arsenal pistol. Both any hard data and personal observations would be valued. Thanks.
Mike,
I have also seen NIB Remington Rands in serial number ranges other than the 2.4 million range, and there is no way of knowing if they were original to the box or not. My thoughts were that really nice pistols were mated up with later boxes as there are a lot more really nice pistols than boxes. Several years back I bought a really nice 2.4 million Remington Rand and the seller provided the information that at one time he had the original box but "let it get away".
Also, how many Colt, Ithaca, or US&S do you see in a genuine original box. There were quite a few of the original boxed Remington Rands sold through the NRA/DCM, and all I have seen were in the 2.4 million range.
Johnny, Thank you much. Most I have seen were in the 2.4 million range as well.
At the NGD show recently there was a US&S in the box, an early no P gun. It was in a nice box and looked good. It was very nicely refinished. It was offered to me and a couple friends at set up for $3500 saying he would price it at $4500. The plunger tube had no finish. It sold early the next day for $4500. Somebody took a major hit.
The RR looks fine to me. The slide is not refinished. For one thing, see how the rear sight is a little darker than the slide - they did not remove the sights when re-Parkerizing, so the sights would be the same shade as the slide if it were refinished. Plus, in indirect light, the slide actually looks a little darker than the frame, which is seen with many late RRs. The frame is obviously not refinished - bare steel in the Ordnance mark.
Is the kraft box from the 1940s or 1960s?
I'd never heard of tumbling slides before!
I just found this old thread; here goes!
Even if different parts are made from the same steel, the changes caused by heat-treatment can cause subsequent differences in finish texture and colour.
With slides usually being generally harder than frames, this shows up quite often.
The ONLY i911s I have ever seen in those boxes were a small batch "recovered" from a big warehouse in Viet Nam a bit over a decade ago.
These guns were definitely the "real deal".
Not only were they "refurbished" guns sent to the Saigon government "sometime pre-1975", they ALL had protective bands of a sort-of "waxed" fabric wrapped around the barrel/frame forward of the trigger-guard, and around the grip.
Thus "padded", the guns were then packed and SEALED in a fabric "envelope" that was treated with some sort of corrosion inhibitor and had a fair amount of "text" on the outside.
There was one gun in a bag per cardboard box.
The guns were UNPACKED, cleaned and inspected before being shipped to Australia.
Interestingly, ALL the guns examined were "bitzas", assembled from parts from every supplier but Singer. (We did look VERY closely!!) ALL were apparently re-finished by the usual blast / phosphate process before being packed and shipped.
Hard to get more "authentic" than that, "mix-masters" or not.
Before you book your tickets to "Down Under"; the number shipped to Oz was very small. Those that survived Jackboot Johnny's handgun purge are in the hands of VERY small band of collectors.
Bruce the ruling that was made by JWH (We all know it was unconstitutional) did that encompass licensed semi autos for club use as I thought they would have been exempt from that draconian knee jerk reaction pushed by the Greens ooops sorry Badger.......