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I have sold my 1917 Winchester and I promised to throw in a bayonet I have a run of the mill 1917 bayonet and I have a minty Winchester circle W bayonet. I have not seen many of the circle W bayonets would I be better off to keep the circle W or are the Circle Ws even USGI bayonets?I have not seen a lot pof info on them
Of course they're government bayonets...when have you seen civilian bayonets? Some think the Winchester bayonets are more collectible, but I should think the Winchester bayonet should go with the Winchester M1917. If he's not particular and will settle for less then give him whichever one you want to.
thanks for the help I had read that the circle W bayonets without US markings were leftovers after WW1 and were included with the trench guns sold to police departments in the 20s. that is why I was questioning if they were USGI
The police didn't take the bayonets I think. The blades were also used with the M1917 rifles and many of those made an appearance in France in WW1. You could still find as new blades and M1917s for that matter when I was starting collecting in the '70's...they made lots of them.
The Winchester M1917 defiantly fetch a premium. Almost double the price of a typical Remington made M1917. I even once or twice I have seen then break the $300 for W made m1917s that are minty( original scarab, lots of bluing left)
The circled W without the other US marks is almost certainly commercial. Following WW1 Winchester sold the Model 97 shotguns with the hanguard sleeve/bayonet stud to police departments and there is good reason to believe that they furnished these non-US marked bayonets with them. I have been told that there are Winchester ads from the 1920s that show the shotguns and indicated that they were furnished with bayonets.
They are definitely scarcer than the US marked versions, but have a somewhat smaller collector following since they cannot be proven to be US military issue.
OK then. Show me ONE. Just one... All these ads referred to surplus equipment. There was tons of it. I don't believe the police took bayonets with the guns. Most of these guns had been altered after police use. Bayonet studs cut off, muzzle boss removed, entire heat shield removed...they just needed shotguns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayonetman
Don't know where you got the idea he has a no US marked bayonet. That wasn't included in his description.
I beg to disagree to some extent. Although rice123 did not specifically state the lack of US markings, he did use a common collector term for them, the "Circle W" and comments further "are the Circle Ws even USGI bayonets?" and then in his second post says "I had read that the circle W bayonets without US markings were leftovers after WW1 and were included with the trench guns sold to police departments in the 20s. that is why I was questioning if they were USGI " which certainly makes the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
The sale of these shotguns and bayonets to police departments is well known, and although I do not have one of the ads, they do appear in special advertising that was sent only to Law Enforcement and not in regular commercial advertising. Having collected US bayonets for over 50 years, I have seen information that I unfortunately was unable to obtain a copy of at the time. At one time I saw a photo of police armed with the M1897 trench shotgun fitted with the bayonet with the label that they were used in crowd and riot control. Wish there had been cell phones with cameras around 30 years ago, I would certainly have had more copies of things that I saw but could not copy.
Most recently, a NRA blog article speaks to this question. Which Bayonet For The '97 "Trench Gun"? - American Rifleman
I viewed the shotguns and bayonets of the so-called "Ivanhoe" sale of the Richmond VA trench shotguns and bayonets which made me just that much more certain of the connection.
Bayonetman - Gary Cunningham
Author, American Military Bayonets of the 20th Century
Website: Bayonet Points
So...you don't have one that's not marked martially...? Rumor and conjecture don't count. Gun show stories...
Sir, I am not sure where you get your information. These bayonets are fairly uncommon but not rare. Attached is a photo from one of my website articles. I would suggest that you refrain in the future from commenting on things that you are not familiar with.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../10/1009-1.jpg
That's what I wanted. I've never even seen one. Not even one. So they're a bit more than a bit scarce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayonetman
And by the way, I'm very familiar with them. You however aren't familiar with me so you should refrain from directing me.
the circle W bayonet had no US markings and came with one of the Winchester 97 trench guns that the Richmond police department about 10 years ago
I am a total outsider here but I simply refuse to believe, unless I see absolute evidence to the contrary, that a Police Force - any civilised Police Force - would have/purchase/use bayonets. It is simply...., well unbelieveable to my sheltered view of the world. A bayonet is only good for one thing. It ain't sharpening pencils or scaring crowds of people, it is for stabbing them as a last means of any mechanical defiance. When all else has failed, you attack with bayonets
I'm still in that forum. Good for pics and gunshow floor talk, but I don't think they took to the streets with them. Or is it because the news papers printed it? I just don't want to go on with it much...because you seem convinced...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Just because we haven't seen something, or it doesn't seem logical, it doesn't mean it isn't true. Here is a short article by renowned historian and author Bruce Canfield that was printed in the American Rifleman.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/blog...ch-gun-bayonet
WHICH BAYONET FOR THE '97 "TRENCH GUN"?
By NRA Staff (RSS)
March 18, 2014
Q. I just purchased an original World War I, U.S.-issue Model 1897 Winchester “trench gun” with a heat shield and bayonet lug. I’d like to get the right bayonet for it. A collector friend told me there were separate Model 1917 bayonets intended just for the trench gun. Is this true? And, if so, how I do tell?
A. There was no “special” Model of 1917 bayonet made for the U.S.-issue trench guns. The reason the Model of 1917 rifle bayonet was selected for use with the trench gun in the first place was to simplify logistics. They were already in production at Winchester, Eddystone and Remington—the makers of the U.S. Model of 1917 Rifle. There would have been absolutely no reason to put a special shotgun bayonet into production, as that would have served no purpose whatsoever, and it would only have complicated logistics. The standard M1917 rifle bayonet worked just fine.
There is one caveat, however. Winchester did produce some commercial production M1917 bayonets after World War I that were identical to the pre-1919, U.S. military contract M1917 bayonets, except these were marked only with a circled “W” on the ricasso and had no martial markings. These were presumably made for use with the commercial-production Model 1897 trench guns made in the late 1920s or early 1930s. In any event, these were not military bayonets and were certainly not issued by the military with trench guns during World War I or subsequently.
—Bruce N. Canfield
Originally published March 2006
This police shotguns with bayonets saga is almost beyond parody...... IF it were so, I can only imagine it'd be something akin to what a friend told me (and this was true/correct as he was on the BMW sales team.....) When the Police in the UK were leaving the 850cc Norton Commando stable, they approached BMW for their 750cc German Police type motorcycle. They came with all manner of stuff, from a hand pump to a small tool kit and German police markings etc etc. The UK Police Forces said that they didn't want all of that superflous stuff and wanted the price to reflect that this stuff had been removed. BMW lowered the price a tad, left the bikes plain white - but STILL the bikes came through with the tool kit and hand pump!!
They questioned BMW who shrugged their shoulders and said '.......that's what it comes with....., that's what you get'. The tools and pumps stayed in the store and a lot of the sales team had a lot of ready christmas presents to give away.
The 1920's were different times. I wouldn't go so far as to discount anything. BAR's, Thompson's, etc were sold commercially in the US. They were expensive but legal and the gangsters had the money to get them. A bayonet if nothing else is intimidating and I wouldn't put it past the police of the era or the gangsters for that matter to have them available if only for that purpose.
It would also make a heck of a sticker for alcohol barrels, stills, etc.
Now, you guys mentioned "parody". The US Government has distributed 12,000 bayonets to local police departments over the past few years. This is NOW, not the 1920's.
Yes, I read about that one. I guess we can wait and see on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Funny thing is...WE got 'em too...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
LOL, I was thinking the same thing but it seemed to obvious to point it out. I took my WWI Enfield with the long bayonet on it to the range one time and got all kids of looks.Quote:
Originally Posted by WarPig1976
Now, you guys mentioned "parody". The US Government has distributed 12,000 bayonets to local police departments over the past few years. This is NOW, not the 1920's.[/QUOTE]
Well, they have to have something to enable the guys. To get their Pickled Onions out of their jars with, during lunch breaks!................;)
Dont tell the Police here that your cops have bayonets for heavens sake.......... Ours'll want them too!
Reminds me of when a load of Police came to Warminster regarding something and they spent an hour or so looking around the weapons collection at the Small Arms School. One spotted the underslung grenade launcher and I saw him eyeing it up with that glazed over look, asking a few questions about its capabilities. Then he said words '......we could do with a few of these...' I replied, somewhat astonished '.....what the xxxx for?' He replied '....knocking doors down' I said '......knocking doors down......... it'll knock the xxxxxxx house down'. Maybe his mum shouldn't have let him out that morning.......
Thank you Peter, I just had to clean my keyboard off! I laughed so hard coffee came out of my nose. :madsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Actually, aside from the keyboard cleaning, I did enjoy that....
Police have used bayonet equipped shotguns since at least the 1920s and some departments still have bayonets on hand now. A nearby small town has two Winchester Model 12 shotguns with bayonets attached in their rack, although the Chief tells me that he has never seen them used although they are kept clean and usable.
I am too lazy to dig through a lot of files to provide photos, but I do have a couple that are in my bayonet photo files for the Model 1917 bayonet. Hope this helps show that they have been used over a long period of time.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a1e5f239-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3de4884a-1.jpg
The bottom one will be Nat'l Guardsmen in the cruiser. As for the top one, I used to watch Mr. Ed when it was on television, it don't mean horses can talk. You see a show going on. Not a crowd being controlled. All done for the papers...
It is possible that the lower photo is National Guardsmen in a State Police car, and of course the first photo is a training exercise. Since browningautomaticrifle knows much more than I do with my mere 50 years of collecting and studying US bayonets, I will not dispute his wisdom. However, I will state finally: Police Departments had military style shotguns with bayonets. I am not saying they used them against the public, but THEY DID HAVE THEM. The original question was about the non-military marked Model 1917 bayonets by Winchester, which a fair number of people have felt were a commercial product, probably for sale to police. Since it seems I have nothing else to contribute to this discussion, I will leave it at that.
I had a military history teacher in high school who stated or quoted, "Fire (gunfire) enrages, Steel chills".
There is something very intimidating about fixed bayonets. They have often led to terror filled retreats.
Well said Bayonetman, ...he needed that :clap:.
Sure thing...
Yep, the photos have convinced me that the cops did have them. But, please, please don't tell Scotland Yard as they'll want them too!
I searched Bing for photos of "Boston Police Riot 1931"* and discovered this photo. The officers are using the paddy wagon as a transport (common for raids and keeping squads together) and you can clearly see the shotguns, bayonet lugs, and slings, what is even more interesting is the scabbard that is seen protruding from the officers side that is seated on the right next to the door. In the photo Gary submitted I thought I saw the scabbard on the left side of a few officers but couldn't be positive, this photo is more clear.
*I have no idea if there was a riot, just what I used for the search after the caption on Gary's pic.
Bayonets for crowd control? Well the National Guard had a few handy at Kent State May 1970.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
If they (US govenment) are providing M16s and grenade lanchers to PDs why not bayonets?
I have a funny feeling that when the muck hit the fan in Northern Ireland in the summer of '69, the Army went out with bayonets fixed - for about an hour! Until told by the politicians to take them off - as opposed to take them out! I could be wrong as I was in Australia at the time. And when told by my pal George Lendich that the Paddy's were kicking off......., again, I rolled over and told him that it'd be all over in a week or so...............
Those Bayonet's 'MIGHT' have been useful for piercing Illegal Barrels of Hootch during the Prohibition years?...................:madsmile:
Pete, your little Anecdote there, reminds Me also of a 'Similar' Incident involving Essex Police. I was working for a Civvy Company you 'Know' who ;) At that time. I was on the Ranges at Lydd (For our US Couzins. It is a Military Firing Range that this company had clearance & an Arrangement with. To use the range. As We manufactured for the Ministry Of Defence, as well as other. Worldwide Forces) I was Function testing, & Proof firing .50" Cal HMG's there. The Range adjoining our's, to our right. Was being used by the 'Tactical' Firearms unit, of Essex Police. At lunchtime, we ALL ceased fire for opening our Lunch boxes, & a cuppa. As is most common, People wander over from range lane to range lane. To see what other Shooter's are using. & also have a Friendly kindered spirt chat. On Police Officer, looked at a Fifty Cal on it's Tripod, & Said: 'We could do with one of these for our Armoury'. 'What on Earth for'? I enquired. Thinking, 'What the F*** would a Police force want with one of these'?......'Well, if a Plane ever get's Highjacked. We could shoot it down easy with one of these'!.........I was astonished! That a Person in such a Priveliged job as to be able to Bear Arm's & actually have the authority to use them. Would think that he would be able to loose, BURSTS of High Velocity LONG range Ammo. Over Populated Civilian Area's. With no thought whatsoever. As to where 'Exhausted' rounds would land, indiscriminately!!!!!!!!! He WAS serious too!!!!!! BLOODY UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!! Also Knew of a bag left on the Roof of a car, loaded with Hand guns after a Range Day. By a Certain Police force. Who drove off with the bag on the roof of a car, & the bag was later found by a member of the public. Who handed them in!!! Can you Believe that????? I didn't at the time, But it later transpired that it WAS true! It was obviously kept VERY quiet by the Police. As a VERY embarrassing 'Incident'!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
If that had happened by a Licenced Firearm Certificate holder. He would have had his Cert revoked, His Firearms Confiscated. & HEAVILY Prosecuted in Court!..........I have never really had a high opinion of 'Armed' Police Officers in the UK myself. I feel a lot of them are Trigger Happy 'Cowboy's'. Who Train & Train, & are so wound up at the restrictions of NOT being able to Fire on an 'Offender' in incidents in General. That when they ARE Authorised to do so. They REALLY let rip!!!
The Guy in the house window in London springs to mind a couple of years back. He was riddled with holes! When in a DENSELY POPULATED Area. A well aimed Sniper Shot, would have solved the Problem. With Minimum Fuss!
And there was the guy in a flat in Hastings, who was also 'OverKilled' with a deluge of rounds. For having an Air Pistol under his Bed!......To be fair on that one, things do happen so quickly in an 'Assault' situation. That telling what is what is a split second. IS difficult. But you DONT need more that TWO rounds to 'Eliminate' the Threat up close!......
I wouldn't trust a lot of 'Em, with a Water Pistol. Let alone a Firearm! LOL.
For the most part U.S. law enforcement ain't thought of very highly either, and in most situations ours don't need any authorization to cut loose. Just an excuse. Their gestapo attitudes turn even the most law abiding citizens against them. Here's a perfect example. About 3 months ago a neighbor awoke in the middle of the night to find 3 thieves in the process of stealing his golf cart from a shed out back. He confronts them from a distance, unarmed, and they just ignore his warnings. So, he gets a gun from the house and fires a couple shots in the air. That convinced them he meant business and they run off through the woods. Next he calls the sheriffs dept. and reports what happened, including the part about firing the shots in the air. According to my neighbor, when the deputies to arrive(9 of them), he's made to come out of his house at gunpoint with hands behind his head and lay flat on the ground. He's then searched, cuffed, questioned and arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. According to the BCSD it's illegal to fire harmless warning shots in the air to deter thieves from absconding with your plunder. Now that's good old American justice for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
Perhaps he should have fired his warning shots, into his front lawn/Grassed area?.......:madsmile:
If it were Me & they were IN the Garage. I would have shot at least one of them. I believe you ARE allowed a Firearm for use IN YOUR Property in the US. For 'Self Defence'?
All we are allowed to do here in the UK. Is use 'Reasonable Force' in ANY situation. It USED to be 'Minimum Force', but that was changed. Because what is 'minimum', when someone is coming at you in the DARK/Drug Fuelled/VERY Nervous/Twitchy/Liable to be unpredictable, Etc, Etc........:confused:
A few thoughts, The Nat. guards were only in the back seat, doubt any police dept, much less State police would allow them to drive one of their vehicles.
2nd thought, It's possible the non US stamped bayonets were left overs, (an over run), after the Government contract was canceled after the war and Winchester found a market for them along with the trench guns. Ray
It was standard procedure to have a police officer assigned with several National Guardsmen for patrol. The Guardsmen did not have arrest powers where the police did. Newark never fully recovered from the riots in the 1960's. A lot of the city was damaged and/or destroyed. That was a particularly bad riot. The rioters broke into Plainfield Machine Company and "procured" a lot of M1, M2 Carbines and ammunition. The police never did recover any of the guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayg
--fjruple