Interesting Long Branch No.4 MK.1*

First off, I'm blown away by the depth of knowledge in this forum. The amount of research & information available is nothing short of astounding.
I'd ask you gentlemen to confirm my speculation regarding the stamps and probable history of this rifle. From what I've read thus far, it's your run-of-the-mill '43 Long Branch with a few interesting anomalies. Condition wise, it's beautiful and the bore is conservatively 9.5/10. Numbers all match and all the furniture and metal parts are properly Canadian marked except for the brass butt plate. Oddly, it wears a micrometer rear sight which I believe was not period correct though it is Long Branch marked.
On the left side of the butt stock is a capital "R" over "REME", so would this be "R" section, Royal Mechanical & Electrical Engineers? Repair depot, maybe? There is an odd 5-pointed star on the barrel ahead of the knoxform with what looks like an "N" inside. Mis-struck Weedon repair depot mark? I'll let the pics speak for themselves. I'm given to understand that the "England" stamp on the receiver ahead of the bolthead is a US import mark, but if I'm wrong someone will no doubt put me straight on that. I've had a number of very nice Long Branch rifles come through my hands. but I haven't seen an unmolested (meaning bubba) one like this in a long time. Thanks for looking.
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I have never seen that R/REME mark and it isn't mentioned in the usual repair marks info. Mind you, nor are some of the other odds and sods such as 4-TRI BW which was 4 (Tripoli) Sub-Base Workshop which was an off-shoot of the bigger workshops somewhere else! But without doubt the R/REME marks is a repaired mark by a big workshop somewhere.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

First off, I'm blown away by the depth of knowledge in this forum. The amount of research & information available is nothing short of astounding.

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Your opening remark is very kind. That's why I came here too. Seems not all share that opinion though...but glad you like it here.

The "Star N" mark on your barrel looks pretty similar to the one on the receiver reinforce ring shown by flying pig in his recent thread.:

1942 Long Branch No4 MkI*

OK, you folks who have contributed and/or read this thread, I think I have it figured out. The barrel mark is indeed the Weedon Depot mark. As I clean off more crud, the mark came clearer and the missing leg on the "W" showed up a little more. That's one mystery solved. The muzzle has the BNP stamp and the usual .303 proof marks so along with that and the "England" stamped on the receiver, I'm pretty sure it's a stamp denoting a foreign made arm taken into English military service, not a US import mark at all.
I must share something about this rifle with you gentlemen. I've owned, shot, and had my hands on many Lee Enfields over the past 40 years of shooting. Since I don't live too far from Long Branch and being a staunch canuck and ex-serviceman, I have a particular fondness for Long Branch No.4's. One of my pride and joys is my 1950 Long Branch which I picked up when they hit the market all those years ago. One, because it's Long Branch, and two, because it's the year I was born. Normally, a lot of the purported Long Branch rifles I've seen lately either have a mix of parts on them, or are clearly restored jobs. No matter how beautifully done and with what care (and I've restored a few sporters myself), at the end of the day it's not a factory or service original. This one is! Other than the brass butt plate and the rear sight, it's never been molested and parts haven't been exchanged. All the wood and metal fittings are properly marked and correct to the factory and year. The most pleasant surprise was the condition of the metal work. I'd conservatively rate the bore at 9.5/10. The bolt face, firing pin, and feed ramp all show very little sign of usage so this rifle has seen very, very few rounds down the pipe over it's lifetime. After I've cleaned the wood and taken out a few of the worst dents, I'll post a few pics.

The ENGLAND is not a mark denoting a foreign rifle taken into UK service. It is something to indicate an IMPORT into the US

The W at the front of the nocks form indicates the presence of cuts or pitting in the bore BUT that the rifle has passed the accuracy test and accepted the running .301" gauge

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The ENGLAND is not a mark denoting a foreign rifle taken into UK service. It is something to indicate an IMPORT into the US

The W at the front of the nocks form indicates the presence of cuts or pitting in the bore BUT that the rifle has passed the accuracy test and accepted the running .301" gauge

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OK. we have some difference of opinions. If you're talking about the "W" inside the star ahead of the knoxform (not nocks form), it's pretty much established that it's the mark for the Weedon Repair Depot. That would tie in with the "REME" stamp on the butt as well as the English parts on the rifle. The bore is only a hair down from pristine condition, and it's not a replacement barrel, so I seriously doubt the barrel had any condition issues.
As to the "ENGLAND" stamp, the rifles I've seen that came up from the US had the distributor mark (ie: caliber and company) stamped at the end of the barrel. My 1950 has the Century Arms & .303 cal. stamp at the muzzle end of the barrel, but no "England" stamp anywhere. Adding up all the clues, I still cling to my belief that this is a Canadian Rifle that was examined and proofed and then taken into british service.
Short of actually talking to some old brit who actually was in REME or worked at the Weedon Depot, let's just agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

OK. we have some difference of opinions.
Short of actually talking to some old brit who actually was in REME or worked at the Weedon Depot, let's just agree to disagree.

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:rofl: You are having this disagreement with an old brit who was actually in REME:rofl: I'd suggest you don't stir the pot too much.......he bites.(and he's right.)

The "ENGLAND" stamp was a country of origin marking applied prior to 1968 for import to the USA. The marking requirements were changed in 1968 to an importer's business stamp which could be abbreviated, the caliber if not present already and a country of MANUFACTURE stamp. There is nothing military related about these markings much the same as the commercial British proofs applied to your rifle.

Mmmmmmmm You ain't going to believe this Lawrence but........... And furthermore I have the Armourers bible here, in front of me and I will say it again. EMER C-504, Technical handbook for field and base repairs, BARREL, Para 2. You can disagree if you want to or you can have it from the horses mouth. It's entirely a matter for you of course...........

Oh yes......... and the same bible says that it's the nocks form

And I bet that the barrel viewer who decreed that your barrel was worthy of that mark had a tad more barrel viewing experience than you. Mind you, I could be wrong

Something seems to be missing here: so the "W" inside a star is a Weedon mark or is it a barrel defect mark, or is the defect mark just a "W" without the star?

I'm confuz'd; for the moment. :)

As to the import mark, I'll have to inform my buddy that he was in error as to the meaning. I accept the explanation given as that would explain why my 1950 Long Branch has the Century Arms stamp at the muzzle and no country of origin attributed.
I would ask the "old brit" who was in REME if he can explain the "R/REME" stamp on the butt? You must admit, for an otherwise unmolested Long Branch, it's odd to have a british butt plate and micrometer sight. That's what lead me to believe it had been taken into service by the brits.
As to he bore of this rifle allow me to say this. I've shot, restored, handled, repaired, collected,and/or loved many firearms over the 50 years that I've been involved in shooting sports. I can categorically state that this bore in appearance is equal to the bore of the '50 Long Branch which I bought unfired in the cosmoline, excepting the difference between two and 5 groove . I don't hold myself to be an expert and one thing I've learned is that there's ALWAYS room to be educated, but with a good stong light, I've looked at that bore from both ends and it is literally like a mirror. There is no sign of corrosion, pitting, fouling or any defect visible to the naked eye. If there is something amiss, it would only be detectable by the special tooling or gauging used in the production of these rifles. Short of you seeing it for yourself, I'd ask that you take my word for it.
BTW, I'm an ex military cop, and I bite back!

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

it's odd to have a british butt plate and micrometer sight. That's what lead me to believe it had been taken into service by the brits.

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No it's not. This rifle can have been restored with those parts at any time. I hated the look of the Mazak buttplates and changed them for brass regardless of whose they were. Sights and buttplates could be changed by anyone at any time.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

the "old brit"

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I'm surprised you don't know him. He's written several books...on this sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

BTW, I'm an ex military cop, and I bite back!

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Like that means anything here. BTW, I did 35 years CDN infantry, and we were never afraid of the MPs...let alone now.

The REME/R question was answered in the #2 post. Please read it again. Your rifle is out of British service as 90% of Long Branch rifles are. Armourer's replaced the parts that needed replacing with what was on hand, hence the British mfg replacement parts. They didn't sort parts by specific manufacture since they all interchange.

I'm former Airborne Infantry, (325 PIR, 82nd to be exact). We had special songs we sang in honor of the MP's on our morning runs when we ran by them holding back traffic. :madsmile:

Kidding aside: You have an excellent rifle with some unique markings. Clean it, grease it and linseed the wood. Get out on the range and enjoy it!

Peter, are there any other interesting mark indicators in that manual? or is that manual on line somewhere so I can read it pls? sounds fascinating....(yeah, ok i must have a boring life)

I do throw them in occasionally SSJ but as you can see, when I do, the questioner or his mates always know better than me. Makes me wonder why they ask.........

An extract from an article by some old Brit guy who was something to do with REME

If your butt has a letter R over the word REME, either painted or stamped, it means REJECTED BY THE REME EXAMINER. It doesn’t mean repaired or repairable, it means, listen to me – REJECTED. It’s marked with the REME logo to show those back in the Base Ordnance Depots that it is a REME reject as opposed to an Ordnance reject. Only the highest level of REME in-inspector will mark this and the REME overrule the Ordnance in all things engineering. That’s why we are called engineers.

Now, the next thing………. The R-REME or ZF is painted or stamped onto the butt because there’s nowhere to paint it on the rifle body. Imagine a Bren with a jammed-up solid gas cylinder needing a FTR to replace it (and they do jam solid too…..). Would the examiner paint the ZF on the gas cylinder? OF course not! Look and think logically those forumers who think and write otherwise………… When we write off vehicles, we paint the word CAST in yellow paint on the bonnet, even if it’s a well worn out Bedford with a cracked and buckled chassis. Is that clear enough?

To the OP - the rifle is probably in such good condition because it was rejected by the military and 'never used'

Alan, Thanks for that refresher. That would explain why we seldom see that particular marking.

A big "Thank you" to all of you gentlemen who contributed your knowledge and comments to this post, even you snarky ones. Since an in-depth visual inspection shows absolutely no reason for this rifle to be labelled "reject", I've come up with a plan of action. I have a buddy who has the go/no-go gauges (though if it's just a headspace issue I can get the bolt heads to correct that), and who can cast the chamber and slug the bore for me. The quick "bullet in the muzzle" test has a .303 ball round going in just at the end of the ogive where it should be. The barrel isn't bulged and there are no visible mechanical defects. Frankly, I'm stumped! If we find nothing obviously wrong, I'll shoot the thing and check it's performance. If any of you gentlemen have any other worthwhile suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

There are entire threads on why rifles are labeled "DP" here. Rejects are the same. Somewhere along the line it was found to be unworthy, that would equate unsafe. Hope I never run into one of you on the range that wants to let me try your rejected rifle. Maybe you could warn people first that it was labeled as a reject first? That would be nice...

[QUOTE=Alan de Enfield;311510]An extract from an article by some old Brit guy who was something to do with REME

[I]If your butt has a letter R over the word REME, either painted or stamped, it means REJECTED BY THE REME EXAMINER. It doesn’t mean repaired or repairable, it means, listen to me – REJECTED. It’s marked with the REME logo to show those back in the Base Ordnance Depots that it is a REME reject as opposed to an Ordnance reject. Only the highest level of REME in-inspector will mark this and the REME overrule the Ordnance in all things engineering. That’s why we are called engineers.

Now, the next thing………. The R-REME or ZF is painted or stamped onto the butt because there’s nowhere to paint it on the rifle body. Imagine a Bren with a jammed-up solid gas cylinder needing a FTR to replace it (and they do jam solid too…..). Would the examiner paint the ZF on the gas cylinder? OF course not! Look and think logically those forumers who think and write otherwise………… When we write off vehicles, we paint the word CAST in yellow paint on the bonnet, even if it’s a well worn out Bedford with a cracked and buckled chassis. Is that clear enough?


Crystal! One last question. If a rifle is "rejected" for whatever reason, should there not be a stamp on metal somewhere obvious? I've seen the "DP" stamp on firearms and they're not hidden. They're stamped large where a cursory look is all that's needed to find it. Considering the stamp on the butt is lightly struck, and a butt can be replaced in a matter of moments, it doesn't make any logical sense. Understand, I'm not questioning your obvious knowledge, just asking for clarification. One would think the REME mark on the wood would have a corresponding rejection stamp on the metal. I tried to find British Ordnance or Engineers rejections stamps on Google and no joy. Ian Skennerton's book is excellent, but a little thin on marks and stamps.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

Crystal! One last question. If a rifle is "rejected" for whatever reason, should there not be a stamp on metal somewhere obvious? I've seen the "DP" stamp on firearms and they're not hidden. They're stamped large where a cursory look is all that's needed to find it. Considering the stamp on the butt is lightly struck, and a butt can be replaced in a matter of moments, it doesn't make any logical sense. Understand, I'm not questioning your obvious knowledge, just asking for clarification. One would think the REME mark on the wood would have a corresponding rejection stamp on the metal.

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My thoughts exactly. Something doesn't add up here.

It must be something in the water in Canada Steve if you can't understand this. It all adds up...... I try to make it as simple as I can, believe me......... Just take the Land Rover that has had a major pallet landing by parachute. The chassis is bent and buckled but it looks perfect. It goes into the REME workshop and the examiner looks at it on the pit and finds damage to the chassis that cannot be repaired or that makes it beyond any form of economic repair.

Now, my question for you lads! Does the examiner
a) paint ZF/BER - CAST on the chassis in yellow paint and then drive it out to the cast vehicle park or does he;
b) paint CAST in xxxxing great big yellow letters on the drivers windscreen (and a big dob of yellow paint on the cover of the vehicle record book)

On Radio sets, the big yellow marker is on the operating face........

And just in case you ain't not read all of the articles that relate to this subject, DP rifles and machine guns DO have xxxxing great white bands (or yellow in Oz or Red/White/Red in India) together with an equally xxxxing great big DP in black in them. And....., I know that you're not going to believe this, it's painted on the wood too! And there's probably nothing wrong with the wood. There's even a xxxxing great stack of pictures to amply illustrate the point.

Sometimes I didn't understand the Army system of doing things but I just accepted it for what it was and did it. Or is it me that's missing something?

Incidentally, the rifle might NOT have been rejected for the barrel, it could be many other things that perhaps your advisers aren't aware of, such as magazine stop face or sear stop height or...... or.........

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It must be something in the water in Canada .........

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Peter - there is always some one with more/better knowledge - all you'll end up doing is disturbing the flies, give up now !!!!

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Peter - there is always some one with more/better knowledge - all you'll end up doing is disturbing the flies, give up now !!!!

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Excuse me to both of you- I'm not claiming to know better, nor am I thick. I'm trying to understand why, if the rifle was REJECTED, stamps would only be applied to the butt, and not to the receiver, or barrel, or some other part made of metal. You know, the equivalent of the big blotch of yellow paint on the radio face. With the OP's "radio" it would seem that REME decided to put a small dab of yellow on the back.

The sarcasm doesn't help, nor was it called for.

Could just be a butt exchanged from from a different rifle to which the stamps were applicable; I believe we've seen that before here.

What length is the butt?

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Could just be a butt exchanged from from a different rifle to which the stamps were applicable; I believe we've seen that before here.

What length is the butt?

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The butt is marked "N" for normal. It's not a replacement butt as the flitch that the stock came from was close to the sapwood and the lighter colour carries over into the butt itself. As well, all the Long Branch stampings match. I have gotten more information from Charles Stratton's book "British Enfield Rifles, Vol. 2 - Lee Enfield No. 4 & 5 Rifles". According to his book and the stamps on the barrel, this rifle was checked over at Fazakerly, which was when the British proofs at the muzzle were applied, and then stamped "England" prior to export. I've had 2 very knowledgeable folks go over the rifle with a fine-toothed comb and we've had it all to bits. The chamber was cast, the bore was slugged, and it was checked for head space. Why was the "Rejected/REME" stamp applied? Without actually talking to whoever stamped it, we'll never know. Given how lightly the stamp was struck, for all we know the tech was testing how much pressure was needed to make an impression on walnut as opposed to beech or birch. All I can do is speculate. Though none of us could see any mechanical or functional issues with this rifle, to err on the side of caution I'm going to put it into a rest and fire the first few shots from a safe distance. As a representative of a Long Branch wartime rifle, it's still one of the nicest I've ever had.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

.... I have gotten more information from Charles Stratton's book "British Enfield Rifles, Vol. 2 - Lee Enfield No. 4 & 5 Rifles". According to his book and the stamps on the barrel, this rifle was checked over at Fazakerly, which was when the British proofs at the muzzle were applied, and then stamped "England" prior to export. .

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The proof marks could not have been applied by Fazakerly as they are not authorised to proof firearms.
In the UK firearms can only be proved (proofed) by the Government appointed proof-houses in either Birmingham or London. These are civilian proof marks and would have been applied when the rifle was sold from the military to the UK civilian gun market.

The England 'export' mark is actually a US import mark required by the US prior to the 1968 change in import regualations. The UK does not 'export' mark anything.

Whilst Stratton has a lot of good information - if it is ,as you state, then he is incorrect regarding the UK proof marks.

To be honest Lawrence, and don't take this the wrong way, but if these two knowledgeable people who checked the rifle in thread 27 over are the same knowledgeable people who have given you the info you have stated in the previous threads, then I'd say......... How do I put this diplomatically............. You need to find a few more LESS knowledgeable blokes!

Just give us their qualifications for stating some of this pure, er...., misinformation. The REME stamp was probably stamped pretty hard when it was stamped. Wood does 'heal' over time. My No5 rifle has the BIG 40BW 69 marks on the butt, but they're pretty shallow now as 1969 was a long time ago!

Maybe you could ask these knowledgeable people where their Armouring-world experience came from because they've been proved wrong - not just wrong, but embarrisingly wrong a couple of times so far. I wish I was in a position to examine it is all I am going to say

Butts and stocks were not made from the same "flitch" of wood so any matching is coincidental.

I asked about the length because if it was a L butt it might have been fitted by a previous owner who preferred that length for shooting. As L butts are not easy to find, he might have used one with such a stamp, and then in the course of time or change of ownership the original butt was never refitted to the rifle. Such things happen.

One wonders why a rejected rifle, and that presumably means one Beyond Economic Repair, would not simply be stripped for parts and scrapped or else converted to DP status?
No need for parts and plenty of DP rifles on hand already? A single stamp and off it goes for disposal?

Interesting that we see so few rifles with that marking anyway; I don't ever remember hearing of another. Anyone else seen one? Thinking about it though, that doesn't seem so odd since policies change over time and a rifle that might have stripped/DP'd in say 1950, might at some later date have just been just sent for disposal?

And in case I give that impression, I am not second-guessing what you say Peter; it's not my place to do so, though I do reserve the right to form my own opinion.;) This thread must be a matter of very little interest to you after handling an innumerable number of rifles, but it is a slightly interesting question to us amateurs, like so many of the S.A. minutiae we discuss on these forums.

Without any cues but our style of writing, it's difficult for us not to give false impressions at times. I don't think anyone here feels they know "as much as you do and that little bit more they already knew" since we all know, or should, that we don't even know how much we don't know on these subjects; but hopefully we're learning all the time. :cheers:

Re your thread 30 Rob. That mark R/REME has been discussed at some length in an earlier thread including photos of same. Para 3 above........ If you're asking why this doesn't simply happen, then the answer is that I just don't know. The REME deal with the REME side of the Army and the Ordnance blanket stackers deal with the Ordnance - and disposal - side of the Army! But we do know that Z, ZF, BER, cast etc etc etc items do get into civvy street. They don't know why we mark stuff as we do and we don't know why they sell the stuff except to get a small financial return

Let me give you another example. Same meat, different gravy. One of my REME Sgt friends was told to get a team of 5 together to inspect 80 old Centurion tanks, of various marks and types/bridgelayers, ARV's AVRE's etc that were awaiting scrap/disposal in Germany. A middle east nation, 'on the eastern shore of the Med' with a distinct liking for Centurions had expressed an interest in buying them. To put it bluntly, they were, er....... totally, er....... shagged for want of a better word. To the extent that the large diameter wheel/bogie/track runner station bolts into the hull or boat of the tank had chattered or sheared or ..... anyway, the tanks were finished so far as we were concerned and in any case we didn't want them any more. They met up with the representative of the buyer who told them that they were buying them as scrap (part of the contract - which Eric was to ascertain) - and would by paying scrap prices accordingly. He also told them quietly that within a year 75% of them would be totally rebuilt, up graded, new Continental engines and be in A1 condition again. Which they were!

The story here is that we sell old equipment for a price. What the buyer does is entirely a matter for him. IF he wants to make a killing selling on scrap tanks for rebuild, or scrap rifles, marked ZF or BER or whatever for the unwary to re-use then so be it. The new Centurion driver doesn't know that a year ago his beloved Cent was scrap, awaiting the hot-axe and nor does he care because a bunch of expert technicians has fixed it. UNLIKE most of the scrap No4's

I don't understand para 5 but if I can say, then I only want to say it as it is 'in my opinion based on nothing more than my experience, sometimes backed up with the EMER where necessary' It does rankle some....., they tell me! But, take for instance someone wanting 'all correct parts' for his rifle then I waste no time in telling them that so far as every REAL armourer in the real world is concerned, we don't do concourse car shows, the correct part is the original bit you took off or the next correct fore-end on the shelf.

Para 6...... I keep reading it Rob but maybe it was a bit too rowdy at our boozy dinner yesterday evening to be fully awake yet.

Kind regards

Thanks for humouring us Peter; I'm going to read that a couple more times to be sure I've got it! ;)