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For those of you who were trained on the Hi Power. Where you trained to hold the pistol a certain way? I ask because I'm a both thumbs pointed forward guy and I constantly actuate the slide lock with the forward thumb which locks the slide back during recoil. To over come this I have to shoot with what is to me with an awkward hold, forward thumb pointing up and away. Don't have this problem on any other pistol
Curious how you guys were trained if at all to prevent this "malfunction"
I trained for years with it and own a .40 cal right now. Just look at the way your thumb lies and move it...not to an awkward spot, just a bit. Do you have Pachmyre's on it? Or Hogues? Or what?
Rather than spend a lot of explaining time, have a look at this image on this article titled the Combat Grip, it may help. You will always notice those combat pistol shooters who progressed from S&W Model revolvers to the Hi Power, by the groove left nicely cut in the top of their thumb.
When it hits the fan they naturally went back to crossing their thumbs behind the hammer, and hey ho the slide did what it does best...............carves skin. So look at the guys hold and work your magic around that. In short get a good firm grip on the pistol grip, and build around that grip with the opposite hand ensuring that hand is not impeding the slide or ejection opening. Hope that helps.
The Combat Grip
At the Small Arms School, during the later 20 years or so, pistol users were pretty-well taught several ways to shoot but it was left to them as to which method they preferred....., so long as it was safe and they could safely undertake all of the drills that were required.
I used to shoot it, held in the usual way, right handed, arm slightly bent, but cupped at the bottom of the mag/grip with the left hand so that the right thumb nail was sort of held onto the grip by the left thumb. Not quite one of the grips taught but close enough. Nobody ever used to say anything toooo detrimental
Stock grips, it's a Mk3 with the thumb rest. You got the gerbil spinning the wheel BAR. Got it out right now and I realize why I have this habit. The thumb rest is forcing me to ride my R thumb on the safety which is placing the support hand thumb too high on the frame. I'll do some pics, its easier to show than describe. To get where I want to be on the pistol I may have to change the grips.
This was the first handgun I bought when I was 21yrs before I knew anything about the history of this fine weapon, the lines and all steel construction just spoke to me. The Glocks didn't do it for me,,still don't
---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------
Sooo, your issue was dropping half spent magazines on the deck?...:madsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I wondered...change for a set of Pachmayr or maybe Hogue finger groove, I've had them both and like them both. That should sort it and also improve the grab appeal for you.
This is what I'm doing
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This is what I should be doing but I don't like it
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This is what the grip dictates, loath it.
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I'll give new grips a try.
I'd try placing the right first and then the left over it. I end up holding the right thumb down with the left thumb. My left thumb is hidden in picture one. Try both sets of grips if you can and just return the ones you don't like, or like less. I had a set of Hogue on my first Mk3 and liked them, the Pachs came standard on the next gun. They're fine too...another thing though, I found the new Mk 3 slide stop is different from the older model. The notch for the retaining ball is different. I had the same problem you had and then changed from new to old model. Problem solved. I had to do a minor mod externally for my .40 though. It solved the problem...
Now if I was still doing my instructor bit here, I would mention that your grouping on target using that hold could be all over the place.
Now that I know you are not cackhanded but righthanded from the photos, concentrate initially on firing holding the pistol grip firmly into the strap between your right thumb and first finger, push it back into that as tight as it will go, and fire with one hand.
Assess your hits on target and then shoot as Peter suggests cupping the base of the pistol grip and schrolling around your right hand with your left, you will then see the benefit of a tight and firm hold.
I would go further also, in suggesting that you try locked arms out front and also slightly bent arms and then also assess your MPI and the best one of those two holds for you.
The reason it has stayed so long in service is simply it is one of the best handguns in the combat role, and will never let you down as long as, like every weapon you clean it regular.
Good luck and get someone to video you cracking off on the range from the side and also learn for that method too.
I'm not much help here, being "cackhanded" and all. My major drama firing High Powers either hand or both is the web of the shooting hand gets beat bloody by the hammer. Especially the rowell hammered versions. The spur hammered ones aren't nearly as bad. The only pistols more blood letting are the Walther PP/PPK things. Maybe followed by Mauser HScs, but it's been a very long time with those.
If the pistol in question wasn't a stock milsurp High Power, i'd suggest modifying or replacing the controls with ones that are more ergonomic. Or maybe temporary replacement "racegun" bits. I did it with ambidexterous safeties on old Govn't Models for match duties. Put the old parts back after they weren't needed.
Meant to also say, when you fire it in what you find to be your preferred natural stance, let the barrel return naturally back down to your original aiming point and squeeze off again, don't try to achieve a fresh eye picture each time through the sight blades, the pistol was designed to accurately put down fire in combat situations quickly.
You may also find both eyes open works for you too........good luck, waiting to see the Pearl and Dean movie showing you on the range, from that might be able to help even further on whats going wrong for you ;)
I'll try your suggested grip BAR, regardless will try new grips, never did care for the thumb rest. I'll post pictures tonight of the damage I've done to the slide notch over the years. I've dressed it up but viewers will get the idea.
Thanks for pointers Gil. My main issue is I forget I need to keep my fat thumb away from the slide release, I get reminded within the first mag as the damage will show.
I took this, this morning when I thought you were questioning my manhood, "I know you weren't"...;) I think I can shoot, target was at 20yds offhand. Ammo was some of my roll your own 115g LRN.
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Those are good, I see you only dropped one. The top holes are coming from the other side so another practice...Once you try the other grips, you'll likely be logging. If you can remember, take the slide stop with you and compare it to an older style if they have one at the shop. You'll see the detent notch is different. Once I changed mine, the slide locking in mid mag ended.
Yup, that's my sons shooting from the other side, he sucks..:) Dad won. Depending on the range you shoot at our club you have to flip your board so the C clamps will grab "hanging from the baffle or sideways from a 2/4. My target is actually sideways.
Well that would get the job done at 20 yards.
You'll see that group tightening up like Starsky and Hutch before long once you find your natural groove.
Starsky and who???? they were two American Detectives who dented bonnets and never missed when they shot their howitzers:lol::lol:
I remember them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
I Remember siting in front of the tv in my underoos watching'em with dad..:)
Here's the picture, ouch!
I run a buffer now because I like to run on the hot side of the data and an unintended byproduct of that is the slide doesn't travel that far anymore. Doesn't matter anyway because the stop battered all "extra" metal out of the way.
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That's not that unusual. Mine has a bit of that. I've seen it enough on others as well, but I agree it doesn't look swell. Yours is in 9mm is it?
9mm, yes.
I'm surprised to hear it's somewhat common. Not many around to compare to.
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Here's the differences in the old slide stop and the new one. Also, my slide damage. And I know for sure this slide stop was causing my slide to lock open in mid mag. Once I changed, the problem ended. Now, I don't know if your 9mm has the new or old type. Stainless is new and blue is old type.
I have the old type. I can see how the new type is a big improvement.
Hey, did you ever have to change out the trigger lever? I did, trigger wouldn't reset I did the spring too but it was the lever. The thing rounded off and would slip right off the sear lever this is after thousands of rounds so perhaps a regular maintenance thing? just curious.. The only other issue I ever had was steel cased ammo chipped the factory extractor, replaced with an after market no problem.
I took the big paddle off the back of the lever so I could remove the firing pin easily. The rest are the same.
I don't think the new style of slide stop is better. I put the black one in, it's the old type from a JI Hi Power. The chrome one is the new type and that caused the slide to stay open mid mag. The long groove allows it to flop up and down.
No, meant did you have the same problem with a rounded trigger lever.
Gotcha on the release, I was thinking the new wouldn't cause damage but flopping doesn't help!!!
I haven't had any problem with the trigger linkage...
It's the groove on the slide stop that allows flopping. The old one keeps the end down.
There is a spring loaded ball in the recoil spring guide that fits into the notch (BAR called it 'groove') that is supposed to keep the slide catch down until the magazine pushes it up. You might check to make sure it is working as it should.
That's right Paul. The old one had what was basicly a dent and the new one is more like a long groove. If you look at the pics I posted, the silver one is the new style. That caused the slide stop to engage with a partially full magazine. The old design of a small round impression didn't. I'm wondering if this could be most of his problem. I'm wondering if he'd compare his to the pics and maybe we can iron this out. It's possible it's not his position and hold at all.
I did compare, I have the old type release it works as designed.
I know it's the way I hold the pistol. Going to try new grips to see if I can get a proper grip that's also conducive to my style. Thanks fellas...
OK, we'll be watching for the end result...
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I have older (circa 1985 and earlier) training pams for the L9A1 and can scan the grip pictures if you need them. The Australian Army edition depicts a 'cup and saucer' hold while British Army editions show variations of overlapping hands. Alternately, here is a recent picture of our lads training with the Mark III Browning pistol somewhere arid. Notice that the two nearest the camera have different thumb placements. I will add that how the hands were placed and gripped the pistol (other than an instruction to grip as high as possible) did in fact change over the years adapting to the evolution in the civilian community of what was essentially Fairbairn's instinctive shooting, to Cooper's Modern Technique, and onward.
That would be interesting to view, Thanks Paul.
Pictures worth a thousand words. The posted picture shows what I suspected, that is, keep your support thumb away from the frame.
Yep, that's one of the ways we did it (Paul, thread 29) and a/my subtle variation wasn't objected to. Never heard it called the cup and saucer method but an apt description. But what a good, tough, hard working and reliable pistol. No wonder they've lasted so long. Browning were sooooooo difficult to deal and contract with though
The pistol has had such a glorious career, it pains me to have my soldiers come back from this last conflagration uttering epithets about our old workhorses. Problem is, we ran out of mags years ago and had to purchase civilian mags. Parts aren't so much of a problem but the frames and slides have seen better days in many cases. The greatest problem would be inability of the average mudroller to engage a Taliban successfully. There is one first hand account brought to me of a man neutralizing a target in an upper window from his commander's hatch. Head shot in one. We're presently searching like the lost for a replacement sidearm, with little light at the end of the tunnel. I say it's simpler than that. Purchase new Mk 3 Hi-Powers at source and then all spares and equipment and pams remain the same. As it is, when I tell someone I have a Hi-Power, they scoff...when I say it's .40 cal they have no idea what I mean. When I tell them it shoots great they change the subject...
Here Here BAR......... I could go on at length about Browning and their idea of what commerciality and business AND repeat business is all about. Think Red Robbo actually running Leyland cars in the 70's. But it doesn't alter the fact that they are great service pistols.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Sadly true that - and FN Herstal, the 'parent' corporation, hasn't much of a clue either.
It saddens me to see such an efficient and remorseless unforgiving piece take such a hammering...............reminds me a little of what happened to Concorde.
One crash and out of service it goes:confused::confused:
Trouble is partly, decision makers have too much foreign choice, Sig,Glock etc etc
But with Browning, they seem to be authors of their own stupidity......... Everyone seemed to agree too! All these other piostols are VERY good, but what the services want is a good SERVICE pistol which is what the Browning is (mind you, so is the SIG, but we KNOW the L9!)
Make no mistake, we have Sig in service. The thing is, I'll bet we could get a steamin' deal on a truckload of Hi-Powers and then we don't have top change anything. Buy parts, mags, spares...and then we're good. It's a good steel frame pistol that has given decades of service. Not figuratively, I personally have pointed out pistol to the Small Arms Instructor's course that were CH number guns with the slot filled. There's a gun that's been in service for...what...70 years? WW2? Late slide of course. We don't linish, we grind...nice, professional looking...
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Here is the first series of Training Pam scans to Jpegs. These are from the Australian Army 1966 and 1983 pams. The Pom... er... British Army ones will follow (after the 'honey-do' and another project is done).
Of note, the Fairbairn style of instinctive point shooting, very evident in the 1966 pam carried well into the 1980s as shown in the 'instinctive shooting' standing picture. With that, there was an emphasis on one hand shooting (for CQB) while two hand hold shooting was limited to deiiberate, aimed fire at more than 10 metres.
The two hand, 'cup and saucer' hold - or a variation of it, is illustrated in the 5th picture. I believe that is the hold Peter mentioned using.
I use the same grip as you but my slide stop never rides up. I shoot the hi power almost exclusively. Maybe just a slight grip adjustment. It doesn't need to be as drastic as you're demonstrating.
I actually had a bigger problem with my safety engaging itself and promptly changed that.
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Here are a few photos from a RAF shoot. The first photo shows a thumb over wrist hold that actually works since the thumb is far enough behind and below the slide. I'll add that this grip was one taught ala Fairbairn's 'Shooting To Live'. The photo with the Scots officer shows two different hand placements that have the thumbs in different positions. The second photo (thumbs crossed) shows what is obviously a modified revolver grip.
I'll upload and post the old British Army Training Pam photos tonight now that the wife's projects and my work project are done.