Armourers Sectioned /Cutaway/ Skeletonised Brengun

I have been trying to find out if sectioned/skeletonised Brenguns were sectioned to a standard from workshop spec drawings to show the workings of the mechanism or they were sectioned in different ways to how the armourer workshop felt was necessary. I have been looking at various cutaway Brenguns, some show simple cuts showing the workings, some show every movable part, in most cases only one side is cutaway. I want to be able to tell if there is a difference between civy and military cutaway Bren guns. Anyone have any info pictures or drawings.

All (?) of the Army skeletonised Brens were done by List and Co at Dagenham on contract to the War Office via RSAF at Enfield and done to a set of drawings. The only difference between them was that the Mk1 specified that the drum backsight must be sectioned to show the action of the elevation cam.

Now....... a lot of others were done - or elaborated on - by apprentices such as us REME apprentices and the ROF/RSAF appprentices during our apprenticeships and these weren't done to an instruction that would be in order to highlight a specific part or operation. Such as to show the positive and absolute locking of a Bren gun breech block to illustrate the mechanical safety and in one particular case, that when the gun COMMENCES to unlock, that doesn't mean that it is ACTUALLY unlocked (look, this is getting nerdishly technical now..........) and a sequence of events could NOT have happened as had been suggested - (you can NEVER have two bullets in the barrel at the same time!!!!!). Anyway, you get my drift.

I have explained a lot of this stuff in several threads earlier. But the answer to your Q is that the Army spec skeletonised Brens were done to a sealed drawing. Others were done too but..... I'm not sure that there were any 'commercial' ones. But dealers being dealers with an eye on sales and propensity to tell the odd porkie pie occasionally (or often.....) might be inclined to tell you otherwise.

The Army spec guns have been deemed to fall well outside the legal definition of a firearm.

Army spec skeletonised Brens were done to a sealed drawing. Others were done too but..... I'm not sure that there were any 'commercial' ones. But dealers being dealers with an eye on sales and propensity to tell the odd porkie pie occasionally (or often.....) might be inclined to tell you otherwise.

The Army spec guns have been deemed to fall well outside the legal definition of a firearm.[/QUOTE]

If you have any 'Skeletonised' Bren's on a Deact Certificate submitted by Priest Firearms of Kent. They were done by Mike Priest himself. & were not official Military conversions. Mike is a very good friend of mine. & I have seen him do many other weapons in this way. Vickers Etc. & they do look very good indeed. But they are NOT Military Spec Conversions.

I sold one recently, which I learnt was made for the EMPIRE EXHIBITION in 1938 I believe. It was a Mk3 with a MK1 barrel and rear leaf sight. It had absolutely no numbers on it but it was a very well made cutaway.
Be interesting to know how many were made this way

Are there any picture's of these military spec Bren gun cutaways? And are they done on one side.

These photos aren't of my SKN guns as these are better than the ones I have of mine on my computer. One of mine has an additional marking which I've seen on a few of the later SKN guns, it's marked NEW 7-56, quite why it would be marked new in July 1956 I have no idea.

Attachment 56951Attachment 56960Attachment 56959Attachment 56958Attachment 56957Attachment 56956Attachment 56955Attachment 56954Attachment 56953Attachment 56952Attachment 56961

I have never seen a Skeletonised Bren completed with DP marked/coppered parts. I suppose that if it went into List with coppered DP parts then it might have come out with them. But as a general hard and fast rule, coppered parts were the preserve of DP weaponry. I could be wrong of course

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

These photos aren't of my SKN guns as these are better than the ones I have of mine on my computer. One of mine has an additional marking which I've seen on a few of the later SKN guns, it's marked NEW 7-56, quite why it would be marked new in July 1956 I have no idea.

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A wild *** Guess ...... in reference to NEW 7-56

NEW will stand for something like NE Workshops and the date of the conversion.

Who knows which workshop it might be? or its the Company that did the conversion ????????? NEWBREY, NEWMAN, NEWTS, NEWZEALAND etc, etc

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I have never seen a Skeletonised Bren completed with DP marked/coppered parts. I suppose that if it went into List with coppered DP parts then it might have come out with them. But as a general hard and fast rule, coppered parts were the preserve of DP weaponry. I could be wrong of course

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BP, That is VERY Nice indeed! You are a Lucky Chap! Like Peter, I also. Have never seen a DP gun converted to a SKN variant. It does make Me wonder, if this was a Civilian conversion?.....Not that I am stating this for a Fact. Just my own thoughts from In service expirence.

I would very much like to have one like that, sitting in my Front Living Room! ;) Though I am 'Toying'. with the idea at the moment. Of having 2 x MG 42's on an AA mount in the corner. I think I am gonna' have trouble convincing the Missus.
That it is a standard Lamp!.....:madsmile:

The photos above aren't of one of mine, I only have some poor photos of mine so I posted the better quality ones instead. The copper plated parts are quite common on the SKNs I've seen. It could be that they soon wore off? Or the copper was removed on purpose? Here are some more showing some copper plated parts. I own 3 and if I remember correctly, 2 have coppered parts and one doesn't.

I've no idea about the DP as none of mine are marked as such.

Attachment 56996Attachment 56997

The Sectioned Brens I have seen on Google have all the sectioning done on one side ( looking down the gun the left side rather than the right shown here) the magazine's seem to have circular cuts rather than square cuts. Seems to be a bit of confliction to what is correct. Have to get hold of the sectioning drawings.

There was a little miscellaneous instruction (Misc Inst 7) in the 70's/80's to the effect that the side of the tripping lever 'window' or opening in the sear could be removed in order to show the top (R) and bottom (A) claws of the tripping lever acting when the change lever is rotated. Also, a scction to be removed from the barel nut to show the hold on the barrel thread through the otherwise redundant opening in the right side when the barrel nut is closed down.

The genuine SKN guns are sectioned down the right side of the guns with some small sectioning on the left of the butt and as Peter has said, the barrel nut.

Any other type aren't original SKNs but may be Aussie or dealer done. When I get back from the states I can take photos of the 3 I have for comparison. For info, these are some of the genuine SKNs I know are in the UK

SKN338
SKN487
SKN1251
SKN1761
SKN2442 Mine
SKN4438
SKN4510 Mine
SKN4666
SKN4671
SKN4977 Mine
SKN5404
SKN5532

Just a small observation but some/most of the dealer done skeletonised Brens don't usually (?) show the side elevation of the locking shoulder where the top rear of the breech block locks into place

Is this the section Peter?

Attachment 57066

Yep, that's it. An important part of its function. That and the mechanical safety of the piston post between the actual LOCK and firing. Then firing, commencement of gas acting on the piston. Piston starts to move, bullet leaves the bore, gas pressure immediately drops to atmospheric. Remaining inertia imparted onto heavy piston assembly (not breech block yet don't forget.....) moves it rearwards for a further 3/4" or so and only then does it commence to unlock the breech. Primary extraction, full unlocking etc etc.

It's a great gun to skeletonise to illustrate mechanical safety and all that it entails.

The 1" x .75" hole ahead of the breech block shows the locked down barrel nut. Misc Inst 7 (or 8?) states that the barrel nut can be slotted here to illuistrate the square thread locking the barrel and drawing it rearwards.

Fantastic bit of kit.

When we discussed the 'is it or isn't it' dilemma with the Milspec SKN Brens and L54/55 DP's, it was suggested that to clear any ambiguity, it would be wise to weld over the firing pin retaining pin so that the full length firing pin remains fixed to the inert gun. Just thought I'd mention that!

I seem to recall seeing a couple with another narrow slot/window above the main body slot to show the pick-up of the next round in the magazine by the feed horns. But perhaps the ones used by Armourers-in-training had extra openings for their training needs.

Thanks BP.