Printable View
I have an Inland Carbine, Inland Div. 8-43. Has RRA on SA stock and other mixed parts. This carbine is in excellent condition. I was able to shoot a 2 inch group at 50 yards. I need some help in determining why I had to adjust my rear sight all the way to the left. To a sharp shooter, a 2 inch group would not be all that good but with 79 year old eyes it is okay for me. I have four other carbines and have not had to adjust to this extreme on any of them. Thanks for your help in advance.
I'd suggest your front sight may not be exactly top dead center. That would explain having to chase it a bit.
Thats happen to me also adjusting my rear sight almost all the way to left...im not saying do this , but i tapped my front signt just a bit and it line up to the rear sight that i had centered before doing this.
Frank
It's not unusable at all.... The Carbine was only meant to be a better/accurate extension of a 1911 .45 pistol for officers to use... It became popular among troops though because of the light weight, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by tspence35
Many carbines I have needed to have the rear site moved to the left in order to shoot dead center at longer yards.
Thanks for all of the advice. The front sight appears to be slightly canted to the right. Would this cause this type of adjustment. Thanks
That's exactly what I said...yes it will cause it.
Check your rear sight and see if it has a punch mark maybe 2 thats what they did to install and keep the rear sight tight inside the dovetail and makes it real tight, thats if your going to adjust your rear sight
Frank
I think Jim is right. And Frank, yes the back sight is staked front and back. Thanks for all the useful information.
Tom
It can happen during a barrel change, usually...not enough care taken. Check to see if the marks underneath match. I've had them lined up and not be correct. Seems I'm the only one though. It just takes a bit of tweeking...receiver's not tight enough I think it would be.
I often get confused on sight questions, but I believe the canted front sight is actually helping you a bit. It sounds like your "point of impact" is too far to the right. If you move the front sight blade to the left, it will "hit" even farther to the right. It's pretty common to see the base of the rear sights offset to the left on the receiver. When the adjustable sights were retrofitted they used gages to get them lined up, but they were not always required to target them. I've got two Inlands that act just like yours. On one of them I turned the barrel a little bit and also set the rear sight base over farther to the left on the receiver. The other one, I just left the sight cranked far to the left, but I don't like the way it looks. Remember these rifles were not designed to be tack drivers. Congrats on the 2" groups! - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by tspence35
You have to sit and think about it. The sight is supposed to be straight up and down. It's leaning right. By adjusting to the left you're trying to pull the front sight to the left. If he goes out to 100 I think he'll find his error returns. Then he has to go further left. Return to 50 yds and you'll be shooting too far the other way. I've been through this a bunch of times already...that's why I have the tools to avoid this situation...now.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Bob 'USGI' and Jim ' browningautorifle' are correct here...
Here is a picture of a 43 Underwood with the same problem your having and i had, its just not your M1 its on alot of M1's that i've seen, Thanks
So maybe ALOT of barrels are not aligned rignt.
Frank
Once you are certain the front sight is vertical, the procedure on adjusting the rear sight is as follows: center the aperture in the sight base. Carefully fire the carbine at 25 yards and take note of the offset if it is not centered. Move the rear sight base in the opposite direction of the offset until you are on center, then re-stake the sight base to the receiver.
I understand the first part cause i have centered the rear sight, but move sight base in the opposite direction of the offset, is this to centef the rear sight with the front sight or to shoot point of aim, ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by INLAND44
Frank
Think this through slowly - my logic may be at fault. Best to have a rifle in your hands to follow the argument!
I imagine that when you aim, you will hold the blade vertical. If the foresight is canted and you hold the blade vertical, then the rest of the rifle is now canted. Which means that the backsight is no longer above the barrel centreline. And you are then pushing the backsight way off centre to compensate for this.
As Browningautorifle points out, this skewed setup means that if you get it on target at one distance, it will still be incorrectly aligned at other distances, the effect being somewhat similar to a scope that is horizontally offset to the barrel centreline. So the only correct treatment is to get that foresight blade back vertically above the barrel centreline!
---------- Post added at 12:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 AM ----------
...And another thing. From my own experience, it is very easy to tighten up the front band so that it is slightly skewed and bends the barrel one way or the other. A 30M1 carbine barrel is very flexible! Loosen the front band and slide it forwards to clear the wood. Check that the barrel is not binding on one side. If it does not lie naturally on the centreline of the channel, then when the band is tightened it will be forced over, thus bending the barrel. (Don't laugh guys, I have had that problem as a result of a warped stock!) Now slide on the front band until it clicks into position. Check that the barrel is not being forced to one side. Tighten the band carefully, being especially careful not to twist the band round as you tighten the screw, as this will bend the barrel to one side or the other.
Then you can worry about the sights!
I found 2 of these signts for a 44 Inland, thanks
Frank
That's the one I was telling you I had on my M2...
These carbines reflect combined manufacturing tolerances. Gus Fisher said that this is the reason that the M1 rifle has a movable front sight. Some carbines line up perfectly, others don't line up at all. They reflect a little bit here a little bit there. If the index marks are slightly off, they may leave a barrel slightly canted. If the receiver threads are a slight bit off, combine that with the index error and you have a noticeable problem. A poorly made hand guard may sit higher on one side and make things look even worse. The people who made these guns wanted acceptability not perfection. If it could be made to hit within standards, that was fine and the gun went through and was issued. My Winchester has visible issues but shoots dead on POA at 100 yds. Point being, don't get on the excitement plan over this stuff, because it is quite normal.
That sight has been refinished, which really has nothing to do with its utility. What I said about targeting with a new rear sight is simply how it is done - you find by shooting where the sight base has to be in order to line up with the aperture centered and you then stake it in place. Then the windage knob gives you some adjustment capability either for actual wind or a change in ammo. But the aperture should be centered to start with and the sight based shifted as required to account for the peculiarities of that particular carbine. Obviously you would want to first make sure the barrel/front sight are properly installed and not rotated, and that the action is properly hung in the stock with no pressure in any direction exerted on the barrel by the barrel band when assembled. All you have to remember about the front sight is, you move it in the opposite direction of where you want to move the point of impact. When you move a front sight left, it forces you to swing the barrel to the right to aim at the target, which throws the shot to the right. On a carbine, which does not have any front sight adjustment, the barrel may not be indexed with the receiver. Look at the index marks to check. You have to remove the front sight to check this, but you do that and check the fit of the sight key in the barrel as well as the keyway in the sight base. The sight key may have to be replaced or peened. The sight should be a tight fit on the barrel which is why the correct tool is needed for removal/installation, to preserve the fit. A sight can be a tight fit on the barrel and still go on crooked if the indexing key is loose in the barrel or sight, which is why it has to be an exact fit. Frequently, on original carbines, we do not remove the front sight for any reason because it leaves tell-tale marks on the barrel in front of the sight. Even on a rebuild with good finish, removing the sight is usually not done as long as it is tight. So, most people would rather adjust the windage with the rear sight and not mess with the front sight at all. If the front sight blade is bent, you can try to straighten it but it could break off. In that case you have to replace it. The only adjustment possible on the front sight is the elevation. If the carbine shoots low, you shorten the sight blade to raise the POI. Once this is done, you're stuck with it so don't do this without due consideration of all factors, such as the ammo you're using.Quote:
Originally Posted by imntxs564
The same thing was done with the original flip sight - the carbine would be fired, the sight moved one way or the other to correct windage, then it would be staked in place.
The early model adjustable sight (PI, HI), the presence ofthe small indexing plate on the rear of the sight proves that the sight base was adjusted in the dovetail to initially center the carbine on the target. The small amount of adjustment in the indexing plate then would allow the shooter to make small adjustments in the field to account for an ammo change, for example, then loosen the screw and shift the indexing plate back to the centerline of the sight base. If this were not the case, an aperture adjustment of more than a few clicks off-center would exceed the capacity of adjustment of the index plate.
Here is a properly installed sight base showing a slight field adjustment with the index plate re-centered.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Rrsight-1.jpg
This is very true and common, and is deceiving.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH
The only thing I can add to the thread is that you cannot "adjust" the front sight to vertical except by rotating the barrel in the receiver, which may misalign the slide channels and cause excessive undue wear on the slide and the receiver. All features of the barrel (bottom & side flats, slide channels, gas cylinder, front sight key groove, etc.) are machined to orient precisely (about the axis of the bore) with the receiver machining when properly installed and, to the best of my knowledge, the index marks in theory mark the exact 6 o'clock positions of the barrel and the receiver units. So, in theory, when ANY barrel is screwed into ANY receiver and the index marks align, then the machining of the barrel is correctly oriented with the machining of the receiver and the slide fits and moves properly in both. I barrel my carbines by using a pair of straight bars placed on the bottom flats of the barrel and receiver and turning the barrel until the bars are parallel. I then check the index marks on the barrel and receiver and have found them in reasonable alignment in almost all cases.
The barrel should be installed in correct alignment - period, and regardless of where the front sight ends up. When the barrel has been properly installed then the rear sight should be moved left or right in the receiver to wherever it is necessary to provide the correct windage on the target. If that is way left or way right then so be it. It is what it is and that is the way it was designed to be. Personally, I have found that in probably 90% of all carbines that I have adjusted the rear sight will end up left of center in the receiver. I do not know why.
For years I have toyed with the idea of machining a series of offset front sight keys to incrementally rotate the front sight on the barrel to adjust the bullet strike 1", 2", 3" etc. left or right to POA at 100 yds, while keeping the rear sight centered on the receiver. I am not a machinist, I'm getting up in years and I don't know how much demand there might be, but it is an interesting idea and maybe a younger CNC machinist type might pick it up and run with it.
Finally, in adjusting the rear sight the ONLY rule you need to remember is that you move the rear sight in the same direction that you want to move the point of bullet impact (strike) on the target. If your shots are hitting to the right of point of aim (POA) you move the rear sight left to move the bullet strikes left. If your shots are hitting below the POA you raise the rear sight to raise the bullet strikes.
In regulating the sights, my recommendations are based upon the assumptions that the barrel is not bent excessively and that you don't want to bend ('Bubbafy') the front sight blade, which I would never do.
JMHO, ChipS
On Inland44's picture, notice the raised up center of the recoil plate screw. That is a sign of an Inland screw. Not always but it is common to see that on original Inlands. I have not seen that on other original carbines.
Where did you figure that was an Inland screw?
You mean there's ammo that actually shoots consistently to the right (or left) of the POA? Up and down I can understand but sideways?Quote:
Originally Posted by INLAND44
When you fire a shot , the barrel flexes and moves in a circular pattern . Changing ammo can change the point of this circle when the bullet leaves the barrel . This will lead to a load landing left / right of another load's impact .
Chris
In my AR, you can shoot 55gr to dead on POA. Shoot 69gr and they go 2"-3" right and higher. So definitely!
intmx564: "Where did you figure that was an Inland screw?" How about when he saw it had a raised center?
DAVE, I wasnt challenging you, i just wanted to know for my information, Thanks
I have one just like it and just wanted to to know where you saw this.
Frank
[A poorly made hand guard may sit higher on one side and make things look even worse.]
Could this be a problem in the alignment of the rear signt, or just in general
Frank: Your hand guard looks normal to me - remember that it is cut away on the RH side for the operating slide. I believe there were some very early or prototypes that weren't, though. On the Inland screw, you are probably asking for a reference you can look up in a book. It may be in the Carbine Club newsletters, I don't know - what these guys are telling you is that those screws have been seen on several original (from the factory) Inland carbines. - Bob
I have one of each, PI and the HI. I would like to Install it on the '45.
Frank